9. Ren Langer: Taking the Leap, From Science to Art, and the Power of the “Amateur”
In this episode, we delve into the journey of Ren Langer, a Seattle-based theater artist (and one of my best friends) who boldly transitioned from a scientific background to the vibrant world of art. Discover how Ren claimed the title of theatre director, embraced the beauty of the amateur, and found inspiration in the multitude of whimsical paths converging in their life. Through a series of personal stories and insights, we explore the power of community, the joy of experimentation, and the importance of following your creative passions. Join us as we uncover the alchemy of creation and the courage it takes to step into the unknown.
00:00 Introduction to the Vision Seed Podcast
00:30 Meet Ren Langer: From Scientist to Theater Artist
01:03 Exploring the Creative Journey
02:15 The Root Chakra: Path, Security, and Safety
03:38 From Science to Art: A Journey of Experimentation
08:43 The Importance of Community in Art
12:03 The Sacral Chakra: Passion and Sensuality
12:40 Embracing the Amateur Spirit
17:27 The Power of Joy in Creativity
24:30 Navigating Failure and Success
32:37 Claiming Identity and Embracing Change
38:18 Exploring Originality and Creativity
38:45 The Freedom of Solo Social Experiences
40:44 The Liberation of Moving and Shedding
44:33 Devotion to Creation and Community
47:15 Confronting Creative Monsters
53:13 The Ripple Effect of Art
55:55 The Power of Specificity in Storytelling
01:00:47 Creative Dreams and Aspirations
01:13:07 Procrastination and Accountability Techniques
01:17:19 Conclusion and Farewell
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8. Ren Langer
[00:00:00]
In this episode, I sit down with Ren Langer. Ren is a Seattle based theater artist currently pursuing an MFA in directing. As a former scientist turned, educator turned artists, they pull artistic inspiration from a multitude of experiences [00:01:00] ranging from producing all fem comedy shows, leading multi-week wilderness trips, facilitating workshops, and directing theater for youth and community.
They're impassioned by collaborative methods of devising original performance. I hope you love this episode and let me know what you think.
Amazing. So run. As we sit here in the dark allow your attention to embrace the area in your body that is the most sensi in this moment. And then to ask that area if it has anything to share, whether it's a color, texture, form a sound. And when you're ready, can share with me
Ren: my chest wanted. Yeah. [00:02:00] I wanted a grunt. A grunt. A grunt. A grunt of the chest. Perfect.
So I always just start with this question to reel us into the body.
Ren: The last. Conversation I had on the podcast when we put our eye masks on, we were both feeling truly how strange and unfamiliar the darkness really was.
And it was this really interesting process of kind of feeling lost together in the abyss or in the void. What we're aiming for in this moment is to come here and to start to feel into the body as a map for talking about your creative journey
so we'll start in the root and when we come to the root chakra, we are thinking about questions related to path and security and safety. Of course, it's this beautiful red color and asks us to [00:03:00] trace our history as creatives. So
I am curious when it was that you began to recognize yourself as an artist? I recognize myself as a scientist first and now I recognize that recognition as being an artist. But the very thing that made me identify so strongly as being a scientist when I was a kid, like wanting to experiment with things and wanting to tinker and I always wanted to create things. I was like, what if I took this and I mixed it together?
Like what would happen if I did this? Which now I see as a total act of creation. I'm like, oh, that is art. Art is experimentation. So I think it definitely started like the root is of childhood and I can trace it all the way back. I just didn't know that was linked to my artistry as a kid.
Quincee: So did you find that like your desire to experiment [00:04:00] was satisfied for a time by the scientific method and then it reached a point where that was no longer satisfying?
Ren: Yeah. I remember science fair is like the most exciting thing as a kid. 'cause you got to pick whatever project you wanted. And that felt so creative to me and so liberating to me. So science was this portal for me into just this world of creation and the unknown, and it was like the pathway into the next frontier of darkness and shining light on it. Yeah. And then yes it became really constricting because once you get to college, there isn't this like loosey goosey science fair.
Everything's like really uh, pretty regulated and Yeah. Has to be like repeatable and all the variables have to be controlled for, and there's so much rigidity Yeah. [00:05:00] Around the scientific method. So even though Yes, it's also such a pathway to exploration, I wanted to experiment in a little bit more of a chaotic way.
Yeah. And more of a collaborative way, and in a way where I didn't need to be recording numbers and repeating it the same way each time. Like I wanted to constantly be iterating
Quincee: the way that I'm seeing this as you're sharing it. Is that you went from, the scientific paradigm where there's a lot of containment and boxes and metrics and structure.
Mm-hmm.
Quincee: And then with shifting the experiment into the artistic realm, you're going into the unknown. And I'm curious, what was the condition that allowed you to feel safe stepping into that unknown [00:06:00] of experimentation creatively versus scientifically?
Ren: I think trust in myself, I think I,
I had proven to myself, like by my mid twenties, I had started to see the power of fake it till you make it really, and just like deciding to do something and or be something and not knowing the way, but doing it anyways. And how that allowed me to do so much and. I don't know. I don't know if there was like a moment for me where I realized that I didn't have to be limited to science.
I think it was just an accumulation of trust in myself that whatever leap I took, I could land it and that I was gonna be okay. And it's like wherever I went, I found people, whatever pursuit I put my energy towards I could do it. I could [00:07:00] rise to it. So then it just became this question of what's the thing I wanna put my energy towards?
And if I'm going to be putting forth this creative energy, do I want it to go to science or do I want it to go to making art? Yeah. And just the realization that like, people do this and get paid for it. Like there are people that like write the movies. And like that to me is the most unattainable.
Oh, imagine being like a screenwriter. Like how do you get to do that? But if anyone can do it, I certainly can do it. If that's like what I wanted to put all my energy towards, which it isn't, I don't wanna be a screenwriter, but I think it, you really do just have to make a decision about what it is.
You wanna put all of the energy towards and go like full speed in that direction and trust that like you haven't, you've made it this far, yeah. You haven't you haven't died yet. You're listening to this. You haven't died yet.
Quincee: Can I hold your hand?
Ren: Yeah. Where [00:08:00] are you? Yay. Fine. Me? I'll hold you boys.
Quincee: Is there anybody out there? Wow. I think part of the reason I wanted to just reach for your hand is just because I feel just such an immense sense of I feel safety as an artist, knowing that you are audacious enough to speak the way that you speak about it. Like it's it's almost like you pave the path by being so certain that it can be tread.
You know what I mean? You continue to like, push up the mountain
and it gives me strength. And I love that so much. Yeah,
Ren: I wanted to be a shark biologist. That was like the thing I wanted to do. And very few marine biologists actually get to, scuba dive with sharks. That's not the majority of that line of work.
But I know for a fact, like if I wanted to do that, I. Could have. But there are people in this world that do that. And so that means it's available. Like it is a path that exists
Quincee: [00:09:00] okay. And so what right now feels like the soil that you're sinking your creative roots into?
Like what is the nourishment right now for you?
Ren: The soil is people. The soil's community and connections and deep love and inspiration from people. I'm not a solo worker and like my artistry is not one where I can or need to go into isolation to do the work. I'm not like a writer or a painter where I can just lock myself in a space and channel all the divine energy and just create something that create a masterpiece.
I have to be in conversation with people and that's the beauty of theater, that people are the medium. And so I, I get all my inspiration through people and maybe an idea will come to me [00:10:00] independently, but then as soon as I start, like riffing that idea with someone who sees the worthiness and the excitement behind that idea. And then we just start being like what if we did this with it and then this, and then it just builds.
And that is where, that's the fertility of the soil doing its work.
Quincee: Wow. It's like the biome, the soil microbiome, richens and populates as you speak with another person and it becomes more and more viable and more and more sunlight. More and more fertilization.
Ren: Like any,
collaboration I've done has always turned out better than anything I could have made on my own.
Quincee: Wow. Can I say something? I feel a lot of actually like almost envy, like when I look at that, because I think as a solo, as a painter, I actually get so lonely from time to time.
I will find myself like sitting. With a painting for like hours on end and being like, I'm so lonely. I want to I wanna be in, in dialogue or in conversation and I wanna feel this idea [00:11:00] growing with another person. But I know there's a so many trade offs, right? There's certainly something very magical about being able to drop into that portal of creating with yourself, with oneself.
But I crave both. I would like to balance my painting practice with more art forms that involve others. I think that would be really healing. Yeah.
Ren: And it's funny 'cause I experienced some envy in terms of wishing I could work alone. Yeah. The minute I'm alone, I'm the least productive person. I'm not even inspired anymore.
Like I will not progress the artistic work when I'm alone,
Quincee: I think that we have something to teach one another. That makes sense. Yeah. I think that's really beautiful.
Ren: Actually. I don't know. As I say that, I'm like that's not fully true. I can I can make art alone. I can't make theater alone., I can I can [00:12:00] do text work alone. Like I can analyze a play on my own, but actually bringing it onto its feet. Yeah. That is the part that. You cannot do alone.
Quincee: So now I feel like we have a sense of your soil and the sense of this root and where you're coming from creatively. And I'd love for us to drift up into the beautiful orange of the sacral chakra and this energy center that's related to passion and sensuality and delight and pleasure. I know that this is a center.
I feel that we are very connected over. Like we love to talk about sacral themes in our lives. For me in this moment, I think the question that feels juiciest is just what is biggest source of creative pleasure right now? What about the creative process or your creative life feels the most pleasurable?
Ren: I think there's so much [00:13:00] beauty and joy in the amateur, which just means like amateur, like the roots of the word amateur just mean love. I can't not talk about Meloderotica on here. Here we go. Here it comes. Tell us about Malat. Erotica. It feels so important to me, even though I've done like all of this work in my grad program and been putting together all of these meaningful plays and performance pieces.
The highlight of my year has been the silliest three person melodica performance that was put on very last minute, not for school for an event that my friend was opening at a new sort of art gallery, coworking space, artistic music venue space. We were asked to [00:14:00] do like a performance.
And I was asked if I could put together a performance, put together a performance, and he just knew, like my friend just knew I did theater. And he is yeah, can you just throw together a little like performance piece?
And I didn't wanna ask too many questions. I was like, I'm just gonna take that and run with it. Like I'm being given a platform. I'm going to. Put something on that platform. And I roped in two of my friends and we came up with this whole, we like learned how to play these melodics and learned a song and then did these ridiculous dances.
It was like high school assembly. It wasn't high production value. It was silly. It was ridiculous. And that was the whole point of it is we're like, let's just like disrupt what we consider to be worthy and art and just bring some frivolity to it. And we did, and people really enjoyed it because it was [00:15:00] silly and sexy. This was a very amateur performance and it meant so much. And it filled our cups past the brim to the point where we were like, we need more cups to fill.
We're overflowing. And now the ideas are just coming. We need more milat, we need more milat, erotica content. We're like, we need calendar, we need an Instagram page. We need to start like doing Gorilla Theater where we like go out to places and just. Perform in the streets and perform in unexpected venues.
We gotta take this to the stars. This is just the start. Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, that those two other friends have other day jobs that are not in the art sector. And a lot of my classmates in this theater, MFA program have no capacity to create art outside of the program. And so I'm finding so much joy in collaborating with people who are like, "non-artists". But love art and want to [00:16:00] reclaim that title of being an "artist". And so there's something really delightful about the amateur. Yeah. Because it's so unpretentious as well. I think it's important to give love to all the amateurs and all the people that are just stepping into their artistic identity, because those are the people with the fucking ideas.
That's what I was just gonna say. And the excitement and the passion, and they're like, let's fucking make this I want to stay up to three in the morning on a Tuesday dancing around our apartment with melodicas, because that feels important.
Quincee: And they, the amateur can bring that level of frivolity as you were naming to, to the creation, right?
Yeah. They have that beginner's mind and in in art. I think that beginner's mind can be valuable just as it is in, in our meditation practice, right? Like we, we start over again. And that is actually the the mark of a true master is someone who can return [00:17:00] again to beginner's mind over and over again, and really feel and know and live into the absolute unknown newness of every moment.
Whether that's creatively or otherwise. The amateur knows that aspect best. And I certainly think there's something to that around That's beautiful.
Ren: The amateur is the real master.
Quincee: Yeah. I like flipping that on its head, right? Yeah.
If you're in touch with newness, you have a leg up.
So
is there anything else that feels important to explore when it comes to themes of like passion or sensuality that you wanna speak about and how those have played into your creative path?
Ren: For me, joy is the indicator of. Whether I'm in alignment or not, whether the art that I'm doing is right or not. If I'm not [00:18:00] enjoying and laughing throughout the process, something is amiss for me. And even if I'm working on something serious, the joy still informs the passion. So yeah, like un underneath passion and sensuality, like joy and play. Yeah. Really drive that. And so I'll feel it,
I'll feel it in my body if something feels right. If I'm in the right direction of what I wanna be making, because it should be enjoyable. And that feels like enjoyment, feels different for everyone. But I've been really like wondering lately what kind of art exactly am I trying to make?
Like what stories am I trying to tell? And while I don't have all of those answers, I know I want to enjoy making the work, to me, that is the divine speaking [00:19:00] through me and saying yes, like this. That's my intuition, being like, this is something that is worthwhile and it's calling to you because it's sparking your joy.
And if I'm playful, that means I'm energized. It means I'm passionate. It means I'm also in touch with my arrows. Woo. And I know what it's like when I'm not playful and I don't like that version of myself. And usually it's if I'm stretched too thin or something. If I'm doing something for the wrong reasons and or committed to something that isn't really me, but I'm like, okay, I have to just finish this project now or just make this thing because I started it.
I'm all in favor of abandoning. I don't think we need to finish everything. That's a hot take. But I don't think we owe that to anyone. The quote, I am committed to truth, not consistency and truth is [00:20:00] always shifting.
And relevancy is always shifting. And what brings us joy is always shifting. So even if you start a project and it brings you so much joy at first, if something shifts and it's like no longer serving and the passion is just like no longer there, I don't think that's something that necessarily needs to be finished.
It should be examined. Like we shouldn't just stop things when they get hard. And it's important to, to finish certain things. And often like the final leg of finishing is the least fun part. It's like the polishing. And it does require work reflecting. Yeah, exactly. It's not like the playful part is often the beginning and the ideating and the discovering and then comes the labor Yeah.
Of needing to like really execute on that. And like a lot of craft comes in and supersedes the art where it's okay, now we need to use the tools to make this presentable. And at least for like theater, like we [00:21:00] will, if we're devising something with actors, we spend weeks just like creating and improvising.
That's really fun. And then the last leg of that process is all about the tech. Yeah. And the lighting. And it's way more meticulous. So I'm not saying just to abandon projects because they're hard. But knowing, making sure your why Yeah. Is there the whole time. And if that's there, then I think the joy should still be able to get threaded through the whole process.
Even if it's like a bit of a delayed reaction, joy, or like type two, he type two. Fun. Fun. Yes. That was totally kind of thing. Yeah. But I say I'm usually the one when my friends are like, should I quit my job? Like before I even hear that, I'm like, quit just, you're asking quit. Yes. If it's not a yes, it's probably a no.
If you're uncertain, that's really big data. Yeah. It's big data. [00:22:00] It's interesting, right?
Quincee: It's like the consent conversation that we often have. If it's not a hell yes, it's a no. Yeah.
Same goes for our creative pursuits perhaps, or our, yes. Yeah. Or the way we spend our energy. And I think that using joy as a compass is such a huge piece here that I really wanna like zoom in on. And I think that you are someone in my life who's inspired me so much to follow joy and to move closer to joy as a muse.
The more joyful we are, the happier we are, the more inspired we can become, the more connected we are to ourselves and others. And I think that's a really beautiful compass. And also like the way that I've always seen the sacral, when I visualize it in my mind's eye. I know this is maybe silly, but it's not silly.
By this point, anyone who's listened to this podcast [00:23:00] knows that I usually see things before I am able to say them in words, and I have to translate from an image. But anytime I'm in the sacral, I can see these like seeds being cast out over the earth, and the seeds know as they're being cast that the casting is what matters rather than the fate of the seed itself, if that makes sense.
Like it's the fact that we are throwing the creative impulses or the creations out into the world that it's, that is significant instead of getting very over invested in the protection and cultivation of one seed necessarily.
And it's interesting too, 'cause like in talking about meloderotica, right? Like you had no attachment to malat, erotica becoming anything. And that is almost what has made it so [00:24:00] powerful. So I think that there's something to, that. There's something to casting a variety of creative seeds out into the world and just following which one feels joyful and leaning into that.
Yeah.
Ren: Yeah. I like that metaphor a lot because when you plant a garden, there's, you understand that not all of the seeds come to fruition. Like they don't all germinate. And that's even written on seed packets. Like here's the germination rate. And so there's like an expectation that not everything you plant is gonna grow and that it's, the dispersal that is where you should be putting your energy and then you let the earth do the rest. You cannot try to control what grows and what doesn't 'cause that is just like beyond our forces,
Quincee: there was something I was listening to yesterday that was interesting to this effect, which was to increase your failure rate is to increase the speed of your eventual success.
So if you [00:25:00] are someone who is willing to repeatedly fail and try again and fail and try and fail, like you are, you're getting to the point of eventual success faster. And I think that oh yeah, that, that comes back to like your experimental nature as a scientist first.
Like you're someone who is not afraid to put two things together and see how it goes and to tinker with something and to try again and again in slightly different ways. And I think that's, I can imagine that's really serving you as a theater director.
Ren: Yeah. We really do learn way more from our failures than from our successes.
I'm thinking about various projects that I've done in grad school and how the ones that I've failed the hardest in are that's like where I've learned the most and where I've been successful. It's okay, I didn't really learn it, I just used what I already had and coasted on that.
But it didn't make me [00:26:00] better. It just affirmed me, which is nice to be affirmed sometimes. But yeah, failure is the biggest launchpad. It's so interesting,
Quincee: I didn't even prompt it, and this seems to always happen on the podcast, but we're already really talking about themes associated with the solar plexus.
We've already begun to drift up into this yellow space that is related to questions of confidence and identity and power. And I think that, this motivation actually to continue forward through failure and with failure is such a theme of this energy center creatively. Like how willing are we really to continue picking up and trying again as creatives, right?
Until we achieve something that is quote unquote finished . I'm also just, I think I'm curious, like when it comes to this energy center, [00:27:00] what is giving you power right now to keep trying creatively?
I feel like the relationships you named first.
Ren: Yeah, that's, that, that's the first thing that comes to my mind. Like I am so emboldened and impassioned by my friends and loved ones who
I think sometimes see me in a light I don't even see myself in all the time. But there's also, there is something more like there is, and I'm trying to understand it. I, okay, I'm gonna share a story, please. Deep childhood story big. Here we go. Big core wound childhood bullying story. Okay. But it's important and it will contextualize everything.
So when I was in middle school, I was bullied in what now seems like such a cliche way, [00:28:00] like a way in movies that you're like, people don't actually get bullied like that. But I actually did get bullied like that. So much name calling and on my birthday in the cafeteria when normally like your whole grade of 200 kids will sing happy birthday to you.
The whole, my whole like seventh grade class booed me. It was like the worst, what nightmare you can think of as both a kid and an adult and a performer. Oh, what's the worst that happens? Oh, I get on stage and they boo me. I literally had a room full of kids booing me and it's such a clear memory because it was probably only five seconds before like teachers like stepped in and shut it down.
But those five seconds where like this endless portal in which I [00:29:00] like died, like my ego died. I think I experienced ego death at 12 years old because as I like stood there receiving this, I also experienced invincibility where I was like, whoa, this is the worst thing that could happen. And I'm still standing here and somehow none of this can hurt me.
It's like I feel. So powerful. And I think that's why I don't have a lot of social shame, like straight up I do things that when maybe be cringey to other people
like just the way, honestly, like I won't pluck any of my chin hairs or my like mustache hairs. And I have I know you're just like listening to this podcast. You can't like, see my face. But Quincy can confirm like, I have chin hairs. Tell 'em you got chin hairs, I got chin hairs and [00:30:00] I by the hairs of your little chin, by the chin chin.
I feel the stubbornness where I'm like, I'm not, I don't care how that's perceived, like that, that can't hurt me. However, like I don't care if people fucking boo at me because I'm not conforming in that way. I, that experience as a kid has emboldened and empowered me to be pretty socially brave.
And go on stage and perform standup and not, I'm not gonna say be fearless. Like it's always anxiety inducing, performing no matter what. But the fact that I'll do it at all and really put myself out there I'm not afraid of social rejection because I've already faced it and I lived. Wow. So to me
Quincee: you got that out of the way early.
Yeah, I got it out of the way early. Social rejection is not scary to [00:31:00] me. I'm scared of falling down a ladder. That's when I'm like the biggest scaredy cat ever. And I'm like, what was that? It was my Google home. Just a man's voice in the apartment. Oh God, please.
Oh my God. Have mercy.
Where are vulnerable right now. Like blindfold of it in my bed.
Oh my God. Am I gonna keep this in the podcast? Probably. Oh. Oh Jesus. I'm shaken up. Power's gone. The container's been broken. Oh my goodness. Oh. But yeah, that, I hope that answers the question about power. Definitely. I think I just get a lot of power from feeling
liberated from a certain social ball and chain that most of us we're in different forms all the time. I'm not gonna claim that I don't care what anyone thinks about me, like I totally care still how I'm [00:32:00] perceived. That affects me, but I
kind of like
challenging and shaking things up.
And I'm not afraid to be the clown. Yeah. And I'm not afraid for my art to provoke
Quincee: it's high risk, high reward. Yeah. I think, 'cause you, when you're blasting a really specific frequency out into the universe, you're gonna deter a lot of people away. Maybe push a lot of things away that are not for you.
You're gonna get some booze, but you're also gonna get some big yeses. Yeah. And those yeses are going to bound into your arms with such certainty, and I think that's really happened for you. The people in your life who
love you,
Quincee: love you so much, so it's beautiful.
Ren: And also there's a lot of power that has come from just experimenting with the very notion of power and what I'm capable of. When, three years ago, I did not identify as an [00:33:00] artist. Like I was still very much in the like outdoor ed, youth facilitation sphere.
And when I realized that I think I needed to make this big pivot, I decided to just do a little social experiment with myself where I said, okay, what if I just decided I am now a theater director? And I just said that to people. I just told people I'm a theater director and if I like what would happen if I just put it out there in the universe.
And I went around to, to like theaters being like, I'm a theater director and I'm looking to direct plays. And all of a sudden I was directing things. We're like, oh great, you're a theater director. Great. There's no no one asked for my qualifications,
Quincee: so claiming an identity.
Ren: Yeah. Yeah. And just being really confident with it.
Quincee: I think that's another way that you've really had an impact on me in [00:34:00] my life is like this capacity that you have had to like claim things. Or be like, yeah, that's for me. Like I will identify and step into that role. Watching you make this transition from being like outdoor ed ren like teaching ren into director Ren.
I did this with dance too. I just decided that I was tired of saying I'm a bad dancer. I was tired of being a bad dancer. I had just carried this limiting belief for so long that I can't dance and it was just starting to, it just wasn't serving me. And once you see that something is a limiting belief and you see how flimsy the belief is you're like, oh wait, this actually has no legs.
And it helps. Moving, really helps to create new identity for yourself. I moved [00:35:00] so much in my twenties and had I stayed in one place, I wouldn't have been able to. Shed and take on new identities so quickly. Ooh. Yeah. Because people would've seen the old version of me. But moving has allowed me to step into new identities and just decide something new about myself. And the people I meet, that's all they know of me. They don't know a version of myself that wasn't that way.
So when I moved to Seattle just in September, I decided that I dance now and that I'm confident dancing and that I do contact improv Now, that was a big thing. I like did ecstatic Dance and Bend, but I never made contact with people and I was so in my head about it. And I would watch other people. And I remember this one woman who, I don't even know her name
and it brought up so much comparison mindset where I was like, why can't I interact like that on the dance floor? Why can't I move so freely? Like that. Why are, why is my movement [00:36:00] so constrained? And as soon as I start dancing with someone, I just feel like an uncoordinated child again. And seeing this woman and noticing the comparison mindset that came up, I started to shift the comparison mindset.
Or I started to re reframe it into an inspiration mindset where I was like, okay, rather than say she has that and I don't, and I'll never have that. She has that and I can have that too. She has that and I want some of that and I'm gonna move towards that and I'm just gonna hold that in my mind as like she is future me.
That is who I am becoming. Not I can't be that because that's already taken. I think like we're always like pulling from people and art we're always just like iterating and riffing on ideas that are already out there. And that's great. That's not like copy, that's not plagiarizing.
That's just [00:37:00] like allowing for inspiration and energy
to,
Quincee: to propagate. So That's so true and so refreshing and I think we've shared this sentiment before, but like this idea that we really are just. These mosaics and reflections of everyone who we've ever admired . I think that is so true, and I can see ways in which, you know, having known you now for three years almost.
Which is such a gift. Oh my god. Mm-hmm. So many more. But seeing the way that like we've taken on qualities of our beloveds and our friends and
like,
Quincee: or just the tapestry of our homies
it's
kind of,
Quincee: it's mad.
!
Ren: And even in art I think I used to think, I used to have, and still probably do, have somewhat of an originality complex where I'm like, oh, if it's been done, I don't wanna do it. And if I would watch something and be like, okay, now I can never do that, or anything like that because they have [00:38:00] the rights to, or they have the monopoly on that.
I don't wanna reinvent something that's like already been done. And in this grad school program I'm in, all my professors, when we like, go see shows, they're like, what do you wanna steal from that? That's how you should be thinking as an artist. Like you should always be breaking things down into their elemental components and then using those components.
Not in the same arrangement that they were used in the production you saw, but taking techniques that they did oh, I wanna do what they did with that lighting, but now apply it to a totally different context. Or take that dance they did and like experiment with it. It's what if I do it with these actors?
And like it's all about pulling from what is already out there. And that's just like the elements of life. Like we have finite molecules on this planet. Like we're all, everything is just constantly being broken down and recycled and reused again in new ways. So like nothing is fully original. No person [00:39:00] is completely original.
But wait, lemme circle back. I never finished me and dance in Seattle
I showed up to Ecst dance and I didn't know anyone. And it's really nice sometimes to not know anyone. There's so much freedom. Yes. I encourage you whoever's listening to this, one of my favorite things. And I'm aware this is a tangent. I will return to dance in a second. I swear.
Um, going,
Ren: Going on a solo
going out in like a social space alone, not just like we go out all the time alone.
We go about our lives and get groceries and do things on our own. But go to a a social event on your own where you don't know anyone and you get to be anyone. And it's so freeing, it's so empowering to, and it's scary too. 'cause there's a lot of stigma around oh why is that person alone?
Do they not have their friend group? And you have to like battle [00:40:00] that, that societal shame of oh, I'm all alone and everyone else is here at this concert with their friends, but I'm just gonna go talk to people. I'm just going to like, interact in this world solo.
We're constantly moving through the world, but we're not always interacting with it. I go to Ecstatic Dance
in Seattle, and I danced in a way I've never danced just because and I felt so free with my body. . And I was like, okay, I have nothing to lose.
I don't know anyone in this space. If I make a total fool outta myself, I'll just like never come back. And I remember this one girl coming up to me and being like I'm so amazed with how you dance. I wish I could dance like that. And I was like, dude, you li I, you literally can
like,
Ren: I don't,
this is,
Ren: this is all just new for me.
And the only thing that has changed is me deciding I can do it. And you have to like, believe that you [00:41:00] can with your full body.
Quincee: I have to say, I resonate so much with the magic of, moving to different places or in my case, like being more nomadic.
It has been so incredibly liberating to be in all of these different spaces and be able to continually like, evolve myself
mm-hmm.
Quincee: And also redefine myself in each of these spaces as I like, as I grow and change throughout my twenties. To be able to undergo those rapid evolutions Yes. If you're able to move, it's so good. Yeah. And even if you're not moving, geographic locations, even just a new place in the same city you're in.
It is a major shedding event when you like pack up all your things and move somewhere different, even if it's the same city, you are confronted with your full inventory, both physical and [00:42:00] emotional slash energetic. And it is an opportunity to do away and downsize like anything that doesn't serve you.
And then be really intentional about how you're gonna start the new chapter. It is like a very literal turning over of a new leaf.
Wow. I love that. As someone who is literally in your home right
now with everything in two suitcases that I need for like foreseeably for the rest of my life, I completely, I feel like you're speaking directly to me in all of this., I feel emboldened and empowered, and inspired to move to New York now and really hold this wisdom that you're laying down with me. This is a turning over of a new leaf and it's okay for it to be. Brand new. And in fact, it should be Yeah.
Ren: And moving as hell.
Quincee: It's so hard.
Ren: It's an excruciating, [00:43:00] miserable process, but it is like a what's the thing the caterpillar goes into the, it's a metamor. A chrysalis. It's a chrysalis. And you, I you go through a full metamorphosis?
Quincee: Definitely in a chrysalis right now. With all of this. I feel like you've been catching me in a lot of chrysalis moments in the past year.
Ren: Up until now, I've, you've seen me in chrysalis or up until Seattle, like the last year and a half. 'Cause sometimes moving it, it, like that can be a stage in and of itself. It's not always one moment you are here and then you are moved. Like I was in a transitional process for a full year plus of knowing I was going from one chapter to another chapter. And I don't recommend that, that was like a huge lesson I learned is that it's not wise to like, draw out transitions.
Quincee: I, yeah. I think I'm learning that right now. In fact,
Ren: it's like when you buy a [00:44:00] goldfish, like you don't wanna keep it in the little
Quincee: trying to go from one fish tank into another fish tank.
Ren: Yeah, exactly. That's actually so funny.
Quincee: As you were saying that, I had a flashback to a few weeks ago when I was in Bali and seeing this man on his motorbike who had a mobile fish shop and he had
like
Quincee: a bunch of tiny fish goldfish made a fish in bags on his motorbike probably not the most comfortable experience for those fish. So may we It was the ride of their lives maybe. Exactly. And yet that's the ride of their eight minute lives. Exactly. And yet it was the ride of their lives. So it's both a, it's the ride of your life to be in transition and it's also a little uncomfortable.
Alright, we need to move into the heart, Ren. We need to, it's time to get to the heart of things. I'm ready. When we start talking about the themes of the heart, I really like to ask what it is that you're devoting your creations to right now?
[00:45:00] What is it dedicated to?
I
Ren: feel like it's dedicated to finding the answer to that question. I, I think I'm still really seeking a deeper dedication and
a deeper cause,
and right now in this program that I'm in, I'm like really learning how to make theater because I feel that there's like a bigger story I'm supposed to tell that hasn't come to me yet, that. That once I have the tools, I'm going to be able to like deliver something bigger into the world. But I know it's grounded in community. Yeah. And community action. And I know that my whole path into, environmental sciences and conservation, like that wasn't a misled path. Like I went down that path for a reason.
Like something called [00:46:00] me so strongly. And
I do feel that a part of my dharma is to protect these wild spaces. And I don't yet exactly know how I wanna create theater around that. But I know that has to be a part of it.
There. Is this calling to make theater that awakens people or something in people
Mm.
Ren: and
connects us to something deeper.
Yes. ' cause I, the way I'm relating to my friends right now,
I don't feel that it's the way every, like the world is engaging with itself,
but this is available to everyone and.
I really do just want to deepen
the capacity for love and for connection and for understanding and working through conflict. So [00:47:00] I'm really compelled by theater that's super raw and that leaves the audience saying damn, they went there. And like that needed to be said or visibility needed to be brought to that.
Quincee: Wow. Whoa. This is really interesting 'cause what you just said is leading me like right up to a question I was dying to ask you.
Ren: Oh, ask me.
Quincee: Maybe a slight framing needs to be done. Okay. Which is, we talk all the time about the shadow or shadow work. Yes. And I'm curious if there are what Julie Cameron calls in the artist way, these creative monsters that are hiding in your closet, what I want to ask is if there are any parts of self or characters from your past that haunt you creatively that we can offer forgiveness to in this moment?
Ren: When you say haunt creatively?
Quincee: Yeah, I think, [00:48:00] keep you from. Saying what it is you want to say or keep you from being able to access your deepest power or truth. And maybe we can even explore this visually. So if you like see your creative sovereignty as this like glowing, beautiful green gem of your heart and you start moving towards that what moves in between you and that
Ren: it's definitely a part of myself. That says
to stop taking up space that says you don't have anything of value to share. Like you, your story's not important.
And even if you find someone else's story that's important, you're not the best person to tell that story and. That there is someone else who could do a better job with that, and that I'm just actually doing more damage than good in this [00:49:00] world. And I think it's just out of fear of bringing harm to the world and wanting to tread lightly.
Yeah. Wanting to tread lightly, wanting to be mindful of just like my positionality and
wanting,
or just fearing that in the process of trying to do good, that I actually do the opposite. It's like the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So yeah. The irony of wanting to create a piece of theater around an environmental issue and that takes place inside of a theater and there's all these resources that are used and the program, like it all just actually ends up being a very wasteful expenditure.
So just like things like that where it's am I actually doing. Good. And like a very critical voice that's if you actually wanted to maximize your social [00:50:00] impacts, you would go into policy, go into like environmental policy or like politics.
Like there, there's a voice that sometimes says you're selfish for being an artist. And that's where I think about the Ikigai. Which is a framework for honing in on your dharma, your purpose, and how it's at the center point of it's like what you are good at, what you can get paid for, what.
The world needs and what you're passionate about and the world needs so much. And it also just happens that the thing I'm passionate about and the thing I'm good at is making art. Which I do think is what the world needs too, but
it I, ugh. It's just tricky to balance when the things, at least like right now, that the world needs, feels like, oh, I should, [00:51:00] I need to be actually like putting money towards causes. Like the same amount of money costs to create a play. Would it be better served to just give the money somewhere direct?
Am I deluding myself into thinking I am doing something good for the world, but I'm actually just
doing what brings me joy,
I guess, and then patting myself on the back
Quincee: yeah, I just want to, ask like a, maybe a challenge to you
because I, maybe I'm also deluded in this, and I often find myself with a very similar voice or opponent. I think when I want to come closer to my truthful expression that's oh, like you're crazy. This is not actually useful. Or a very similar like antagonist, let's say that's I know you intend to do well, and you might have good intentions, but you're not actually making any sort of real impact with any of [00:52:00] this. I wonder if it creating a state of joy in you could alone be enough to make it worth it.
Yeah. Would you accept that as a reasonable outcome and a worthwhile outcome for your creative? Process.
Ren: Yes, I would, it would have to be joy plus like fervor. Fervor. Yeah. A sort of inspiration to act like a call to action. Yeah. I would consider that piece successful for me, even if it just launched me to the next piece. Or even if one person in the audience
was inspired to take action through a series of ripples. Maybe it can't even be measured, but
I think as long as it is catalyzing something that leads to the eventual catalyzation of another thing that like goes in that direction of the change that I want. [00:53:00] Yeah. Then that is successful. But it also means, as an artist, you never really see the impact you have on the world because it's not measurable and it's not immediate.
And it's very rare that one art piece will. Will change something in this world. But
it will change people. It will change a mindset or it can change or lead to a change. You just can't, it's just yeah. Imperceptible.
Quincee: Yeah. Wow. It's so interesting. Again, it's happened that like we're already in the throat and talking about what we wish to communicate and express and what ripples we want to send out into the world with our art.
This is, these are the questions I was going to lead us through next. So I feel really just amazed at how this seemingly happens often on this podcast where the themes of one energy center, the heart lead into the themes of the next, the throat and [00:54:00] Yeah. We're, we already find ourselves exploring this question of communicating our artistic idea or communicating our creative work out into the world.
And I'm really struck by this idea that we need only really impact one other person. And like to send a positive cascade. Out into the world and to really affect the field around us. And to me, that's been really
an important remembrance over the last few months as I begin to create this podcast. Of course. But also like the other things that I'm creating to remember that if I teach a class and three people show up and I improve , the days of those three people and they feel more creatively inspired, or they begin to feel more creatively liberated and then they create something that inspires someone [00:55:00] else we cannot know the way that we exponentially affect the world around us.
Ren: That's how the universe works. Yeah. It's like how when we were both working in wilderness therapy, we never. Got to see the real impact we had on the students that went through our program. Like sure, we saw, how they might change during the course of the program, but then they disappear into the world and we never know what they become and how what we imparted onto them gets propagated through the world.
Like we just have no idea. But we know in that moment that there's a spirit moving through us to I deliver truth. And I've had moments with a student where I'm like, I don't know how that will land for you and when you will receive that, if ever.
But I know that what we shared was powerful and [00:56:00] beautiful and true. Yeah. And I think art is the same way. It's I don't know how this will be received. I don't know what impact this will have, but all I know is that this is what is true
Quincee: As you like, run your fingers back over, maybe the last few years, maybe your life, I'm not sure how far back this question will reach, if there is a conversation that you've had with someone that has fueled your fire and emboldened you to step into your creative power or inspired you even,
or created safety for you or permission.
Ren: Oh, there's so many. I'm thinking of a lot of my professors and
, a very similar piece of wisdom continues to get shared with me over and over again by so many different people. And it's the advice is just make the damn thing like it. Don't [00:57:00] wait for the invitation, don't wait for the money, don't wait for the space. Just start making it even if you don't know how.
Especially if you don't know how, just start if you have the impulse, let it start to roll. Don't be like, oh, I have to like, I'll keep this idea for when I have all of the resources to make it happen. I'll wait till I have a stage to do this on. No, fucking do it in your house.
Do it. It do it in an alley. Yes.
Like,
Just let the idea express itself by whatever means necessary. Yes. Even if it's not the most beautiful, polished version of it. Even if it's not like the highest quality. Yes. That's not what it's about.
Quincee: I think this is so key. Like inspiration has an expiration.
Ren: Yes.
Quincee: And if you don't [00:58:00] act on something when you feel inspired to do it, like it will fizzle out and die. And that, and it's tragic to think about. Or, we can look, we can think about it in the way that, Elizabeth Gilbert frames it in big magic where she says if you're not available to receive this download, someone else will.
Someone else will receive it. And that's maybe adding a layer of competition or something like this too. Yeah. But I really do think that's very true. Yes. Yeah.
Ren: The idea will die or. If you like, if you document it if you make sure to keep a list of ideas that are simmering for you, but maybe you really just don't have the capacity to execute on them, if the idea is powerful, like if it's a salient idea and continues to be relevant, it'll still call to you.
Like I, I have some ideas written down from a long time ago where I'm like, yo, that still holds up. That's still
like,
Ren: I would, I will still make that. [00:59:00] Because while I would love to say every impulse that comes to you just make it. Not everything can get expressed right away.
Some things do need things in place that maybe you don't have in place or you like need, you're looking for a collaborator. 'cause it can't be made alone. So if you have the means to make it, even if you feel like you don't have all the means, you should still make it. But I don't necessarily agree that inspiration or that an idea will die if you don't make it immediately.
Sometimes that is a good test of an idea. It's okay, put it in the parking lot and. Look at it in a few months. And is it still equally juicy?
Quincee: Yeah. I like that.
didn't,
Quincee: I didn't know where we were headed with, put in the parking lot. I was like, in three months. Is it still a car or
Ren: That's something my professor says. She's like putting idea lot parking lot. 'cause I get feedback a lot that I'm always trying to [01:00:00] combine my ideas.
And like mixing metaphors and I will try to squeeze in all these ideas into one project instead of just trusting one simple idea and not trying to complicate it by layering on other competing ideas. Yeah. So my professor will be like, just pick one of those ideas and put the rest in the parking lot.
I think all, all of this about, you know, dialogue and feedback that you're getting the opportunity to engage with in your program. Is so related to this energy center. Mm.
You are really In this moment as an MFA theater directing student. Being asked to clarify your expression
and then have it available for feedback and make yourself available for feedback and to listen well you're really, you're in a lot of dialogue creatively right now, which is really rich.
There's a lot of [01:01:00] conversation
Okay. So you can begin to embrace the third eye center, the space between the eyebrows with your awareness. And this is beautiful indigo color in here. We're dealing with themes of intuition or insights or inspiration
but I want this to just be in keeping with the theme of creative joy. I just want to give you an opportunity to like rapid fire dream about five or 10 things that you'd really like to create in your life. And it can be totally random not necessarily related to theater, but just like 10, 10 things big or small you're interested in creating.
I still wanna make potty planters. It's a really good idea. It's basically a toilet tank lid that is meant to hold water plants because there's all this [01:02:00] water we're that's just sitting there and the tank of your toilet. And you could have plants growing there and it works. I've grown plants. It's very cool.
Watch Shark Tank to see me on their planters coming. Um, Dude, I wanna, have I told you about the reality TV show I wanna make? No, I never thought I would like, wanna make a reality TV show, but I'm telling you, there's something to this idea that I, and I can't let it go. Same format as like The Bachelor or The Bachelorette, but whoever's the Bachelorette never actually gets to meet the contestants.
They meet their friend group and basically just date their friend group.
Quincee: Amazing.
Ren: And it's like through, and then the friend groups picked would have to be very different from each other, and I think even just like in Seattle alone, I'm like, there's so many pockets of people. There's so many squads that do totally different things for fun.
And [01:03:00] I just the idea of you getting to watch different communities and get insight into how people recreate with each other and what different.
Quincee: I would love to watch that
Ren: . Yeah. I think it'd be entertaining. And then the contestants just learn about the person through their friends.
And like they can, their friends will like really gas 'em up, and, but it's basically like whichever friend group they get along with would be a person and enjoy hanging out with. Exactly. Exactly.
Quincee: It's a pretty good way to date
Ren: I think so too, because it's like the homies are everything.
Mm-hmm.
Ren: If you wanna be my lover, gotta go with my friends. I've definitely told you about this idea before, but I want to make a magic school bus musical for adults that follows the trajectory of the kids of the Magic School bus all grown up reuniting at their like 20th high school reunion only to find they've all completely [01:04:00] lost their sense of imagination.
And it's just all about like, how do we as adults reignite our childlike sense of play and wonder and curiosity. And I want it to be like a very, like techno musical. I want Meloderotica to be become an official experimental performance group. And I want us to like really disrupt spaces and complicate the idea of what it means to disturb the peace. Take a place like the DMV what is the experience of. Infusing art into a space that is so depressing.
And boring and like kind of an irritable place for a lot of people. And also what does it mean? What are the ethics of subjecting people to art who don't consent to that? So that is where like the experimentation comes into things. Like I really want to run a lot of social [01:05:00] experiments like that.
And I really wanna create a piece of devised theater that asks, what do we do with our shit when there's no more room left under the rug?
And looking at that on a personal scale of what do we do with our personal emotional shit all the way up to the environmental scale. What do we do with our trash when there's no more space in infills? So those are a few ideas right off the dome.
Quincee: Awesome.
I'm so excited to see, of course, like as we cast all of these seats out, we can't really know which of them will germinate. We don't know what the germination rate is, and I love knowing that I can observe over the next, 30 plus years, everything that comes to germinate for you creatively and beyond, I'm sure.
But that's just a really beautiful thing to wonder [01:06:00] about.
Ren: Will potty planters germinate? Exactly.
Quincee: I'm sure it will.
Ren: Please do not steal this idea. People listening like, do not steal that idea from me. Actually, you can, I, I just want potty planters to exist, even if I don't make it.
That can exist. But don't take the other ideas.
, But also I have so many complicated feelings around ownership of creative property and ideas and yeah. It's just a very crazy concept to try to copyright. Certain forms of intellectual property that really just can't be owned.
'Cause the idea is so much bigger than us. Yeah. Anyways, that's, that could be like a whole other episode of the podcast. And it shall be. And it shall be.
Quincee: So this was coming up for me, this question the other day as we explored your beautiful [01:07:00] workshop about creative impulse. And the other day Ren led this ecstatic, expressive, beautiful workshop. All about the creative impulse and how we sense creative impulse, or how we sense the impulse to move or to express and what we do with it and what that looks like in individual setting and partner settings and group settings.
It's beautiful exploration that ended in like an ecstatic group trance experience where we were all mirroring each other as a group and. In like rapture. It was an incredible workshop and the question that kept coming up for me that I want to explore as we float up into the crown chakra, this space that has everything to do with unity and oneness and completion.
The question that kept coming up for me was, where does [01:08:00] this impulse come from?
Ren: I know, right?
I think that's part of the faith piece for me where I'm like, that is where there just is this divine presence because some ideas really just can't be
conceived in the mind. They're discovered from like an external channel.
Yeah, and I think the collective conscious is where a lot of like divinity is housed. Like I think it's almost like the a,
like a giant brain
and that
a lot of what, at least I feel like I'm trying to channel is coming from the collective conscience. Or I'm like what is in the like shared brain of our species right now? It's not necessarily mine, but like I am, I can access it because I'm part of the [01:09:00] web.
Quincee: Yes. And this is so beautiful because it comes back full circle to like the original thing I wanted to discuss with you on the podcast, which was how we explore the universal
when we fully and with rawness and with devotion and commitment, tell the story of the specific, we can begin to touch the universal.
Ren: Yes. It's like a fractal.
Yes. And if you draw it very specifically and in detail that allows you to zoom in or out and like it, the pattern will keep going.
But being really clear about what the shape is or like what one's personal story is, if you can tell a very specific story. This is why I love children's books. Like they just go for one [01:10:00] like moral, right? They just go for one certain, like when you give a mouse a cookie for example, it's like such a specific story of a mouse that gets a cookie and then it wants more and it almost seems like completely unrelatable.
It's so niche that no one can relate to that experience of giving a mouse a cookie. But like the shape of that story is something we all know. Like the lesson of that speaks to everyone. Yep. It's
like,
Ren: oh, when you give an inch, they take a mile. I was working on a piece, it was like a solo piece for a documentary theater class I was in where I'd interview my mom. And I wanted this piece to be about like mother daughter relationships. And I kept having this urge to wanna make it really vague. 'cause I'm like I want this to be relatable to any mother and daughter, so I don't want to include too many specifics about [01:11:00] my relationship with my mom because then I'm gonna lose the audience my teacher was.
And my professor was like, no, it's the exact opposite. You need to be really specific about your relationship with you and your mom. Tell very particular stories. Don't try to generalize it or talk in ambiguities. Like the more specific you are, you will actually people will relate to that.
They might relate in their own ways. Like they might not have that exact experience, but you'll capture something so specific that is part of a bigger fractal.
Quincee: Wow. I have so much to learn from you in the ways of mining story and asking good questions. And it's such a privilege and an honor to get to podcast with you for that reason.
Ren: I have so much to learn. Like the more I learn, the more I learn there is to learn.
Yeah. And there's definitely a voice that's I'm so behind. Like [01:12:00] I should have been studying this since the age of five. Like I started at 30 learning all of this, and I'll never, it'll take me a whole lifetime to catch up. And I think I could have started at age five and still feel this way. That there is like endless amounts Yeah.
To learn. Yeah. And there will always be, there will always be.
Quincee: But I'm so glad you started when you did, and thank you for Yeah. Moving towards that wisening and moving towards the truth, even though it, you could have talked yourself out of it because "too late"
I really admire that you went for it and that you said, you know what, no, I'm going to, I'm going to go be a theater director now. And had the bravery to choose the path of joy and to follow joy as your compass. He[01:13:00]
Okay. Red. Okay. Anything else you want to share before we go back into the light? Before we move towards the light,
Ren: before we light up?
Um,
Ren: I will share
a technique that
has worked very well for me as someone who's a bit of a procrastinator. If I don't have a deadline or if I don't have external accountability, I tend to not get the thing done,
and I only recommend this to procrastinators, I think, because it can be a bit painful and challenging, but I have had a lot of success with.
Advertising things that don't exist yet as a way of needing to bring them into existence. Like I reached out
[01:14:00] to facilitate this workshop before I had a workshop to, to share, and I like wrote a description for a workshop that did not exist yet that I had not yet created, but trusted that I would be able to create it. And once that accountability was there, once it's
like,
Ren: oh shit, okay, now I have a date and people are coming, then it has to exist.
That is how plays work. There was like a poster for the play I directed and there was a link online to buy tickets before we had even cast it. Like before there was any semblance of a show it was already starting to exist just through it being advertised and called into existence that way.
So even though it's like really scary, you have to like battle a lot of imposter syndrome to
promote something that doesn't exist yet. And then there's a bit of panic of oh fuck, now I gotta make [01:15:00] this thing. Why have I done this to myself? It's effective.
Yeah. Just bringing it back to Meloderotica for a second, before we had assembled our, our three person show for this art event, we were asked for like a description and we're like, okay we're create like our theme is like an exploration of like utopia and dystopia and we're gonna be doing some AI stuff, but like none of it had existed yet.
And on the poster for the event sorry. It was just so funny when we all read the poster and we just died laughing. When we saw the advertisement, that was like under our event description, which was like a unique interactive theater experience unlike any other,
and it just, it was like a really big, lofty description of what we were doing and we were like, we need to like deliver on this now. We have to do that. And [01:16:00] not that we even have to now we get to like our work is cut out for us now. 'Cause we now we have the destination and the compass heading and we just have to like move from A to B.
Now.
I've
Quincee: totally had so much, so
much joy doing that. And also have experienced similar feelings of imposter syndrome with that. Like specifically in my workshops at Burning Man, like having three workshops on the schedule and knowing okay, I'm probably gonna have 20 or 30 people show up to take this workshop and I only have the name and the description and I have to create this and those ended up actually being the best possible workshops they could have been because I did not overthink them or toil or get so tense on pushing people through a, like a mold . And instead I allowed them to come and bring their [01:17:00] whole selves. And that is what informed the way that the workshop unfolded ultimately, was what people were bringing in present moment. Versus some preconceived thing that I wanted them to get out of it. Like it was much more informed by the reality of what was, than what I wanted it to be or what I wanted the outcome to be, which was so valuable.
Thank you so much for having me come. I love you. I love you. Thank you so much. You're so brilliant. Thank you so much. This is so special. I love you. I love you.
