6. Dr. Marina Lavelle:  Embracing Creative Mysteries and Embodying the Serpent 

Written By Quincee Lark

6. Marina Lavelle:  Embracing Creative Mysteries and Embodying the Serpent 

In this episode of the Vision Seed Podcast, Quincee delves into an intimate conversation with Dr. Marina Lavelle, an artist, vocalist, dancer, and healer inspired by nature. They discuss the alchemy of the creative process, divine feminine expression, and seasonal phases of artistic focus. Dr. Lavelle's work in music, dance, and naturopathic medicine is explored, alongside her integration of craniosacral therapy, herbalism, and the creation of a forest and wellness retreat center. The conversation also touches on the symbolism of the serpent in healing, kundalini energy, and the interplay between the seen and unseen in the realms of creativity and therapeutic practices.

00:00 Introduction to the Vision Seed Podcast

00:29 Meet Dr. Marina Lavelle: Artist, Healer, and Visionary

01:06 Setting Intentions and Embracing Vulnerability

01:55 Exploring Sensations and Creative Practices

03:37 The Power of Music and Alter Egos

08:27 Embracing Darkness and Feminine Rage

21:32 The Symbolism of Snakes and Kundalini Energy

37:31 The Spiral of Growth and Healing

43:19 The Heart: Center of Compassion and Connection

47:55 A Journey into Healing and Naturopathic Medicine

50:12 Discovering Natural Medicine

51:51 The Role of Naturopathic Doctors

53:12 The Power of Meditation and Nature

57:51 Healing Through Art and Nature

01:00:53 The Journey of Self-Discovery

01:07:11 Embracing Creative Expression

01:19:21 The Intersection of Emptiness and Creation

01:26:19 Following the Vision

01:38:47 Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

  • . Dr. Marina Lavelle

    ===


    [00:00:00] Welcome to the Vision Seed Podcast, where we gather in the dark beneath the soil with an luminous void from which all creation blooms without our sense of sight. We explore the alchemy of the creative process through intimate conversations with artists and visionaries. Together we embrace the mystery and infinite potential of the unknown.


    This is a space to honor the whisper of inspiration in the dance within the blackness that births creative magic. Let's journey into the void.


    Quincee: In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Marina Lavelle Marina is an artist, vocalist, dancer, and healer whose work is inspired by the natural world. She channels her voice as the lead singer of burial clouds, transforming vulnerability into empowerment through music, dance, and ritual. A doctor of naturopathic medicine with training in craniosacral therapy and herbalism, she integrates nature, sound, and somatic therapies into her healing practices.


    Marina is currently co-creating a [00:01:00] forest and wellness retreat center in Washington State where she continues to nurture deep collective healing.


    Is there any intention that you would like to speak into this space before we go dark?


    Marina: Just to have a open heart and open minds to receive and give Yes,


    Quincee: open mind, open heart to receive and give.


    My intention is to hold a rock solid container for the exploration of, your creative journey and your creative path and to invite curiosity into the room in every way 


    okay. Should we pull out the candle together? Sure. Are you ready? Yeah. One, two, and three.


    All right.


    So as we sit here in the dark, I invite you to [00:02:00] find the area of most sensation in your body.


    Without story, shame or judgment, just allow your awareness to go there


    and inquire into that space. What is the color, what is the form, and what is the texture of this sensation? Could you tell me a little bit about it?


    Marina: I think I was brought to the base of my neck and skull. I think it's the, a place of tension right now.


    It's this kind of place between my head and my mouth that like goes right through the center. That is where my attention is located. Maybe a difficulty speaking my mind or knowing what [00:03:00] is the right thing to say


    Quincee: I hope here that we can . Explore options and experiments and play in that as much as possible. I see this like the space at the base of the head as like the. The intermediary between the mind and the mouth in a way, physically. Yeah. I would love to start in the root and hear a little bit about what the practice of your creation looks like right now. . Maybe even we could get into how it's evolved and shifted and grown and changed over time.


    Marina: I feel right now I'm in a music phase. I'm a multimedia artist and so I go through seasons of different goals or different focuses. But I felt music was always the hardest for me to [00:04:00] engage in or express with and share with others. And so I called it into my life in a way that it felt like now or never.


    Not that I was trying to threaten myself, but just that, I know I don't know how much time I have and I don't need to delay the satisfaction of fully loving all the forms of art and whatever fear I attach to music more than the other art forms. I wanted to face that. So I've joined a band it's giving me some accountability to show up and people depend on me to write and make progress and practice.


    So that's the pole and the discipline. I think I needed [00:05:00] to overlook my fears. And so that's been the main focus. We're writing an album right now. Wow. And so I feel a lot of discipline. It's shaping my abilities a lot more than when I was by myself.


    Quincee: Do you find that having the, like container of the band, creates a space where you feel safer to share your voice? 


    Marina: Yeah, I do feel like I can create an alter ego that is separate from me in my rawest form as an individual. And just the blend of artistry creates something new in itself that I feel just lucky to [00:06:00] be a part of it.


    So even when I have a hard time with my relationship to myself and my own practice, I can still be really grateful just to be a part of the blended arts. But it does feel safer to also have the support of the other artists when I'm feeling scared. 


    Quincee: Yeah. This is something that I, I spoke to. With my brother when I had him on the podcast , and he's a musician as well. And he spoke to just like the joy frequency that you're able to access when you're up on stage with a band. And having this permission to step into this group field of joy or like power or play when you're in a band.


    And people in the audience of course feel that as well when you're having a fun time up there with your friends and it's pretty magnetic. I also loved what you shared about like [00:07:00] the way you have this alter ego, right? Or this persona.


    And so this is a new permission to set down some of the like fears, insecurities or blockages that you might face as marina the human, maybe like Marina as musician, stepping into this completely new identity gives you like a new permission to to exist and take up space as an artist.


    And I think that's something I've been giving a little bit more thought ah, okay. How does stepping into a new alias maybe for writing, perhaps change the way that I. It feels safe sharing or feel emboldened, or does it provide new license? And I think certainly it does.


    And there's been so many artists that over the centuries, over the decades, especially recently, who've taken on like artists' names. So I think that's really cool. 


    Marina: It does allow a [00:08:00] compartmentalization in some ways to a container for your art and your emotion, but I also think it's not entirely alter ego because it is from within.


    So it's like we have so many versions of ourselves and so many emotions that we can hold that, that you can channel one personality of many that you might be able to choose from. Yeah. And it releases some shame too because, ah especially with, we're a metal band there's a lot of emotions people shy away from, and darkness, whether it be your dark side or rage or need for revenge.


    These kind of tropes I guess that get thrown into alternative music or heavier music. But it's not I feel like I'm storytelling. And it's not who I am necessarily. It's just an [00:09:00] energy that you can tap into or part of humanity. And people can look at it and learn from it, but not let it be who they are or come out in weird ways in their everyday life, yeah. It's just a form of storytelling and a form of accessing these emotions in a safe way. 


    Quincee: Yeah. Out letting something really true and really raw. And I think, in the case of creating art around like darkness it's really yeah. I find the analog to that and like shadow work, very compelling, right?


    When we gather around and normalize the, like darker or scarier or heavier aspects of humanity and make art about them, it becomes just this point of alchemy to shine a light on what is like challenging or heavy and to make art. I love you naming that.


    Stepping [00:10:00] into a creative identity or an alias, let's say, or a artist name. It isn't necessarily, it's not an alter ego, it's an inner selection of a frequency that you can emit, so you're like tapping into all of your parts inside and asking like, okay, who wants to step forward and share something and how can I serve that part and allow them to share something through my creation?


    So it's not an alter ego, it's a tending to an energy that exists within you and an amplification of an energy that exists within you.


    Marina: Yeah. I love the way you speak. It 


    definitely paints some of the things that I feel. Yeah. It's so interesting, like what you said about asking who has something to say because my overarching self, which is probably [00:11:00] taught by society in a lot of ways, the mask that I present, which is an integration of multiple selves and this filter on top, it's very scared.


    I don't want to say anything, I don't wanna perform necessarily when I think about it as a logical question, but there is something inside of me that, that does want to, that does have. This suppressed, voice or story or emotion. I do feel that with across multiple art practices that I need to say something and I need to show something, and if it were up to my logical self, I wouldn't share anything because it's a vulnerable, risky thing to do.


    Yeah. But to truly check in with yourself and ask, who's inside and what do we have to say? That's such a interesting yeah. Proactive practice, I think. 


    Quincee: And as a multimedia [00:12:00] artist, I think that's a really maybe poignant experience for you because you have these different art practices that allow different parts of yourself to speak or express.


    I could guess that the part of you that is getting a chance to speak and express through the illustration of your tarot deck is very different than the part of you that gets to speak and express through singing in a metal band or, playing. I actually don't know.


    Do you sing in the metal band? That's what I thought. Okay. I do 


    Marina: mixed vocals. Okay. So I do clean singing and I do screaming like heavy vocals too. Which is a funny thing because I do feel like it really furthers the different layers to this alter ego. And sometimes I even use different voices or characters in these stories to come out during those.


    It's [00:13:00] almost like a conversation within the song like a push and pull of different energies. So I've been using the different types of vocal styles to tap into different frequencies as well.


    Quincee: Wow. I feel like already so naturally you're moving up, into this, the sacral right now with what you're sharing in the way that you're speaking to parts blending together and like there, there being this wateriness that is the element associated with the sacral and like fluidity and the way that your creation span.


    Many domains. I'll tell you what I'm seeing in my mind's eye. And I might do this a lot on this podcast just as a aside to any listeners, because I often am translating images into words as I speak. 'cause I see things before I can say them. So what I'm imagining is there's like this [00:14:00] seed of like orange fire within like the womb or the belly that's projecting out in so many different directions and like shooting tendrils out into a lot of different domains and and they're indistinct and they're flowing together and Yeah.


    I love that. And I'm curious as a creator right now, what is seducing you creatively right now? What feels like most juicy, sexy, and alive and you, that might be a weird question.


    Marina: No, I think I, that makes sense.


    Quincee: Yeah. But what's drawing you in? 


    Marina: I'm have, I'm gonna have to say still this. This music Yeah. Is capturing me. But really, it's funny that you say the word seduce and I thought of the tarot card of the devil, which I've pulled a few times this year. And, I was raised really religious, so it always causes a little alarm for me.


    Oh no, the devil in me is [00:15:00] alive. And I think it's this kind of card of temptation and this card of wanting to fully give in to this like power and to this seduction and to this whatever the heart the sacral region really desires. I grew up with, just trying to be really grounded and trying to be very private and trying to be very modest.


    And this fire's been growing inside of me to be more rebellious, to be seen, to be sensual. And that maybe the ways that I was taught about like sexuality and my femininity was really just a little bit misogynistic, the way that we see the feminine, and the way that's demonized is yeah.


    Been a really hard thing for me to overcome. And it's something that's been really empowering me in sometimes a scary way. Yeah. So I feel like music and dance too really [00:16:00] works on my blockages. And I say girl region because I have been hiding and building walls around my sexuality to, in order to be taken seriously almost, I felt like I had to suppress this sensuality that I inherently have to be a real artist.


    And now I'm realizing that it's inherent to my art and to who I am. And so I'm just gushing and want to take, I wanna take safe steps and not overdo it. Like this temp devil card, I wanna be still safe and still balanced, but I really want to be okay moving and screaming and taking up space and being seen.


    And I do think that the world needs some divine feminine rage and my sexuality right now. And just like allowing that to come tear out a little [00:17:00] bit. 


    Quincee: I love what you're saying so much about the world needing a little bit of like divine feminine rage and a little bit of audacity to lead with the sacral as a woman in this world right now this was a conversation I was having just today with a really dear friend and we were talking about, about people in our lives and community and the ends of relationships.


    And we were both like, I'm just angry right now about this and about the experience of creating space for that anger and like allowing it, that rage or that vitriol to be there and to be tended to, we were speaking to the way that divine feminine. Rage can be so beautiful and actually so generative and empowering, and how feminine rage can be something that mobilizes community and mobilizes movement and mobilizes creation and mobilizes radical change [00:18:00] and how we both hold, a generative rage and we hold a destructive rage. . And I think there's something so juicy about as a creative de-stigmatizing the sacral drive because there has been a villainization of it, but the drive of the sacral is in its purest form, it's creation, and it's yes, there's a hedonism and there's aspects of like pleasure and lust.


    And that can also be greed and that can be dark and that can be spiky and spiny and challenging. And it can also be when held lovingly, like really immensely intelligent. Our desire is such an intelligent compass especially creatively. I really think that, and it sounds like you're titrating really beautifully the experience of like religious guilt and shame around sensuality and sexuality and like now allowing [00:19:00] yourself the gift of screaming and expressing that feels that feels really important and really beautiful. And reminds me, again of an, of a conversation I recently was having with another artist who was talking about the way that his art was a rebellion a rebellion to the circumstances of his upbringing.


    Yeah, so powerful. So powerful.


    Marina: It is a powerful tool. 


    I think of the feminine a lot, that darkness that people fear demonize. It's so transformative. It's that reflection that needs to be done in order to change. It's the mirror. It's that water that people need to take a good, hard look at in order to realign themselves in their masculine and their action taking.


    It's like you need to take a step back and just rage about what isn't right in order to do the right thing [00:20:00] it's always this constant. Flowing into one another. And I feel like it's hard to separate the masculine and feminine entirely, but just that they lend to each other and that they should be in harmony in order to find that balance. But yeah, the religious upbringing has been such an, a big facet of my art and my personality and my writing lately. And it's interesting because I noticed my siblings, I don't think were as traumatized as I seem to have been. And I always wonder, we both were raised in the church.


    I just took what they said so seriously. And took it to heart and let it impact the way I saw the world, that I was heartbroken and devastated by the realities of the world. My sister and I will talk, and she didn't feel like she took, the way that the attitudes towards women that seriously, like she just wasn't affected by it.


    So I find it [00:21:00] funny, it's maybe as an artist that it's like I chose to be tortured by the words and the stories. I just took it to heart, but I'm using it to reflect, I think this societal attitude, this cultural. Phenomenon that's grown. And I think, down to the symbolism of religion has been really big in my art and snakes, which you've probably seen on a few of my art pieces have been my biggest reconciling.


    Yeah, it was like, I had a vision actually a few years ago and it was a snake and I've always been really afraid of snakes, partially because of my religious upbringing. I took everything so seriously and it was a snake vision and the snake told me that I was an instrument and that I needed to repair my relationship to snakes.


    And I was like, I have no idea what that means. [00:22:00] And I really misinterpreted it for years actually. But I'm slowly still understanding it. But I think there's a few things. It's like the snake is this feminine thing that's been demonized in these stories, which I think were mistold mistranslated anyways, but the snake is earth.


    It's this grounded, this sacral connection to the earth. And it's, it is about fertility too, just in the way that they move side to side in this curved motion. But I. Need to accept this femininity in my life and not feel guilty as if it's evil, but recognize that snakes are beautiful and they're very earthy, gentle creatures.


    And often the snakes we imagine that are striking people or Rattler snakes, they give people warning they aren't inherently evil. [00:23:00] It's when you invade their space that there's consequences. And that's a divine feminine rage. And it's I need not fear an animal that minds its own business and there's consequences for crossing its path.


    And that boundary is beautiful. It's admirable 


    in a way. 


    Quincee: Wow. That's an incredibly powerful vision and story Are you familiar with kundalini yoga at all?


    Marina: A little bit. 


    Funny, you said you went to India Rakesh, right? Yeah I went to Rishikesh a long time ago, and I did, I was working at the Rama's Children's orphanage volunteering there, and they had given us tickets to a Kundalini yoga festival retreat.


    Wow. And, so I did attend that and it was, I was 18. Wow. It was my first introduction. I thought it was very interesting at the time. Yeah. I was super [00:24:00] excited to be there. But yeah, there is definitely an aspect of this sexuality and this femininity and I remember there being really interesting tongue exercises, which I think is a great tongue exercises.


    Yeah. It was like this tongue release and it was a very interesting yoga practice. Nothing like I'd ever seen before, but it reminds me of that snake. Yeah, like energy and that like colleague goddess, like sticking her tongue out.


    This like rageful feminine. 


    Yeah. I think, oh wow. It's so cool to feel that parallel of having been in the same place as you and having yeah. Walked on that same ground and had, I think it sounds like pretty different experiences with the, our induction and introduction into the idea of Kundalini.


    But yeah, when I was there, the training that I was immersed in was like very slow and very deliberate. [00:25:00] Tending and like cultivation of stability and attention and awareness in the body through each chakra in order to prepare the system for maybe an eventual experience with Kundalini energy rising out of the first two chakras.


    'cause in the traditional sort of reading of Kundalini, we have a coiled snake resting at the sacral, and that snake can begin to rise up if we're prepared energetically, spiritually, emotionally, physically for it to begin coming up. But one thing that I find really interesting, which is why I start this podcast by asking about what and as we're sitting here in the dark, is because before before we move to the first chakra, the [00:26:00] root chakra and the kundalini that I studied, we start with the third eye.


    And idea behind that is before you start building a bridge, you need to know where you wanna go on the other side of the river, right? Or before, let's say we can use a GPS example too, like before you start driving in the car, it's really a good idea to put in the address of your destination into the GPS.


    So anyway, I digress, but now I'm getting on a tangent of of Kundalini. But I think that it's really interesting that this snake came to you in this vision and said you are an instrument. And yeah, it just is reminiscent of what I know of Kundalini and like working with the energy of the serpent and allowing the body to become an instrument of that core energetic.


    And as as the energy of the serpent moves up and out of the sacral, [00:27:00] it is no longer just sensual, sexual, or erotic energy. It takes on the energy of the center that it is residing in. So while it might start as very base or very sexual or sensual, erotic, let's say, as it moves up into the solar plexus, which is what we'll talk about next, it takes on a motivation or drive or a power or into the heart devotion, compassion, connection, the throat expression, and all the way on up.


    Just as a snake sheds its skin and sheds its layers. So too does the snake of Kundalini rising in our bodies and our systems. So anyway, I'm on a tangent now, but it,


    I love he learning and I love,


    Quincee: I'm so excited about it. You can tell. Yeah, I'm 


    Marina: excited too. I feel like I love, I invite people to interpret the vision.


    I've had a few people tell me different perspectives on what they [00:28:00] think and it just everything always feels a little true and that I just learned a little bit more about the symbolism and the stories and the potential and my admiration for snakes only grows. Yeah. The more I learned about how symbolic and beautiful they really are, that I'm was gifted with such a vision at a time where, I was really scared of snakes.


    So it was an alarming vision at the time.


    Quincee: And we're in the year of the woods snake now too, on the Chinese calendar. So it's a really cool time. It's very earthy snake energy this year,


    Marina: and I feel


    I wanna say it's been four or five years since I had that vision. So I feel like this is really the year that I'm rising to the occasion. Oh. And I'm starting to understand what it meant. 


    Quincee: That's so cool. I'm really happy to be witnessing you in that. That feels really special.


    Marina: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for totally being here with me.


    It's such [00:29:00] a privilege. Yeah. So I'm curious if there are any, as we move up into the solar plexus and start thinking about themes of empowerment or confidence or radiance, if there have been moments along your path creatively that have really lit your inner fire of course, I know you're saying right now music feels like the biggest passion point, but as you run your fingers back over the experience of your past, was there ever a moment where you were like, oh, this is what's this is my motivation and this is this is a moment of true power and creativity.


    Quincee: There's been a few, there's been a few memorable moments that I do connect to my solar plexus, and one of them is a couple different solstice. Events or the solstice time in general. And it is that, that when the sun is at its peak [00:30:00] it's the most light in the year.


    And so I went to a event and I just remember, I remember a few wise things a lot of people say and that I just never forget. And one of the things that this lady said, that this is the time where you sow the seeds and then you harvest. And we've been sowing the seeds in the spring and gathering the soil and getting ready in the winter, and then in the summer we have this big energy to create this masculine sun energy to go out there.


    But she said, you, not all your seeds are gonna make it. And sometimes you'll have to choose what you're going to end up harvesting and what you're gonna put all your devotion and energy into. I hate that because I don't like to choose, but me neither. What she said was, are you prepared to be the badass that you have to [00:31:00] be in order to sow those seeds to harvest?


    Oh my God. If you have these dreams and these visions and these wants, they come with a certain responsibility and a certain consequence that requires you to be your best self and to not fear being your fullest, brightest, most hardcore version of you. And are you actually prepared to be that badass?


    Because otherwise those seeds aren't gonna make it. 


    Wow. 


    And I just love the way that she said it too, as badass because as a challenge too. Yeah. Are you ready to do this? Yeah. Yeah. And it made me be like, yeah, like I don't wanna be shy and scared and hide and forever I wanna be that badass, but also that doesn't mean it's gonna be easy.


    That means it's gonna require these guts this, gumption, [00:32:00] this like muscle and fortitude. You gotta chisel your tools, oh my goodness. And sharpen them and get to work. So 100% that lady really changed my relationship to my art and just allowed me to step into that part, that alter ego that was more of a badass than my out outward expressing self was at the time.


    Wow. 


    I have chills listening to you talk about this. 'Cause I have been drawing a diagram for, I don't know I continually do this, but right now I'm drawing another kind of chakra diagram where I'm going through and thinking about the energies of each center and what you were saying about sowing seeds and having to select the ones that you're gonna pour into.


    That is just such an epic a [00:33:00] verbal parallel to what I was drawing the other day in my diagram. And I think that I even wrote a note next to it of the solar plexus is where we refine or we choose which things we're going to send up to the heart. So like the sacral we're sending out the seeds and the energy in all different directions.


    And the solar plexus is that space where we're like refining like, okay, which one of these things am I going to like fiercely and powerfully protect with every cell of my being and send up into the space of my heart and adore and devote myself to. So I'm just like listening to you share this.


    I'm like, whoa, this is incredible. This experience is so big and. Yeah. Oh, I 


    Marina: love that. I love and that's what I love about what you're doing with this podcast and these stories. That woman was giving a lecture and it really changed my life, and it was just one [00:34:00] sentence. And so being able to share this with you and have a parallel with your journey and maybe someone who's listening to Yeah.


    To be able to engage with their power and their guts and trust their gut. But also it's a choice too. Yeah. It's a very active part of you. And I also think it comes with a release. I do have a tattoo over my solar plexus and the placement, I think at first was just chosen a little bit by chance, but I do now think that it's meant to be there.


    And it's again, I love animals. So animal symbolism is what I think about a lot. But it's two eagles. 


    Quincee: And 


    Marina: the eagles also have this very masculine sun energy. But they do this ritual that called the death spiral, where they link talons with each other and they spiral, and they'll do it for mating rituals, but they'll also sometimes do it for territory.


    Testing the strength of [00:35:00] each other. What I felt at the time was a lot of personal chaos. And I felt myself slipping out of control and I had to let go of this person that was very toxic to me. And even further to this habit of being attached to people who are toxic and training of me.


    And I felt if I didn't get this habit or this tendency or this part of me healed under control, that I was going to succumb to this and that this would become my life. And so I just got to, rock bottom and decided that I would never allow someone to treat me that way. That I would have this wherewithal to be able to be strong and stand up and walk away.


    And so this Eagle Death spiral kind of represented like knowing when to let go [00:36:00] to save yourself, but also this beautiful dance we have with others in the world where we take these risks and we're testing each other's boundaries, but also that you have to let go before you hit the ground. And you have to be strong.


    And so I have these eagles, like rock block locking towns right over my solar process. Oh my gosh. And I feel like it really just reminds me that it's like. It reminds me of my power, but also to protect that power and to make choices of how I want to ex extend this energy. And sometimes it means I have to choose myself and because I want to be loved and I wanna belong, a lot of the time I can let love, wanting to be loved and wanting to belong, control my artistic expression.


    Quincee: Wow. 


    Marina: But I don't want that. I want to create out of my true heart and my gut. And not because I am afraid that if I say [00:37:00] something or do something, that I will lose my place. But my place in this world is created by me and I create the space to be myself and the boundaries too. So I do feel like the solar plexus kind of saved my life in a way.


    It allowed me to, yeah. To choose exactly the life and the person I wanna be, 


    Quincee: to choose powerfully. I love that symbolism and the Yeah, the spiral and the knowing when to let go. , That's such a beautiful story.


    Marina: I do think too that the kundalini that now that you mention it, both of the front and backside of my tattoos are like spirals.


    Quincee: Yeah. 


    Marina: So I do think that shape too is just fascinates me endlessly, the patterns in nature, the upward spiral. 


    Quincee: That's so interesting that you mention that because just yesterday I went on a really beautiful and dear adventure out in the woods, [00:38:00] in the forest, in the snow. I realized that I hadn't taken any time to be in the forest this winter.


    And I hadn't been in like a deep wintery area in years or in two years. It's because I was not here last winter. I was away in, in tropical climates. So I don't know. Yesterday I went out on this walk in the woods and I stopped and looked at the trees, but I, it was different. I looked into the trees and into the energetic of the tree that was in front of me, and I was thinking, oh, this thing isn't just growing straight up out of the ground.


    This is not a linear being. This thing is spiraling. Spiraling up and up and up. And if you look really closely, you can see the energetic of that tree spiraling upwards [00:39:00] because. You look at the branches up in the canopy and they're in this subtle spiral that's ascending upward. And I just found so much wonder in that I found so much wonder in thinking about the energetic of the tree being expressed through its morphology.


    And I just love, I know you're also an herbalist or also super interested in plant allyship and working with herbs and plants in order to heal. And I found so much joy in seeing the energetic of the tree expressed in its structure. And I found it a really beautiful mirror to remember that, ah, I too am working in an upward spiral.


    And and I'm not linear either. I'm not going to, [00:40:00] I'm not going to move forward or up or out in any discernible pattern. Things will loop back around and I'll find myself lower in one day and higher in another. And but I do trust that the spiral is steadily ascending even though it is not straight.


    Yeah, so that's really precious. Yeah. I love that imagery and it's so true. It definitely is. I see it now. I feel like you're painting the picture really well for me, but yeah, it's always growing up and outward and the growth rings and the tree reflect that outward growth as well on this. 


    Totally.


    Marina: Expanding from every direction. Yeah. I really think that too. It's always, the spiral has brought me a lot of wisdom too, because there's times where I'm dealing with a problem or a, one of my personality [00:41:00] flaws and I think, gosh, I feel like I've done this before. I feel like I'm just back to that problem again.


    Or I thought I was over that and here it is again, sprouting up in my life and I feel like I can't get away from this or that I'm stuck or tethered to it. But then I realize that we do cycle around and we do come back to the same seasons and the same problems, but we're actually from a different perspective that we're growing up and out of it.


    Yeah. And we are in its vicinity again, but 


    Quincee: we are 


    Marina: further from it. And we are from a higher perspective. Yes. And we are growing. Even further from it every day if we choose to. 


    Quincee: And growing around it. Yeah. Yeah. 


    Marina: Wow. And we accommodate too, just like a plant would if, one of its, if half of its trunk was severed or a big branch was cut it would find a way to spiral in a way that brought balance and strength [00:42:00] back to its structure.


    We can't always recover and it's just not in the, way we originally intended all the time. 


    Quincee: I love the way the conversation just naturally flowing in this way that we're already talking about tenderness and compassion and healing as we like go into the heart center and speaking about growth and evolution and like kindness towards oneself as we witness ourselves move through pattern and cycle and seasonality that's so tender.


    And Yeah. I wonder what else feels important to speak about in this domain of compassion towards oneself and kindness and devotion of your creation. I don't even have to prompt you, you're just Yeah. Ripping in every chakra.


    Marina: I think we have a lot in common, so I'm happy, I knows. Just happy to talk. It's really cool to learn about you. I'm so happy we could go on for a while. There's definitely a lot of a [00:43:00] size I want to dig further into. I know I keep wanting to branch out into like new Yeah. New chats. There's a lot of tabs open in my mind right now with 


    you.


    We can hold, this is recorded so we can Yes. We can come back to a second part sometime. Yeah, we'll do a part too. I can feel it. I feel like the heart is maybe the most important. I don't wanna say that because I don't really understand. I don't really know anything. But I just think the heart is in the body.


    It's this pump and it's the most important thing to keep people alive in an emergency setting. It's the quickest way to die is when this pump goes out. Because our blood is life. It's like the water of our life. We need, every cell in our body is impacted by our circulation and our heart.


    And the fact that it has carried this connection to [00:44:00] love and. Spirit and connection. I just find I love about medicine and that's another huge part of my work is the healing. Healing. 


    Quincee: You haven't even 


    Marina: gotten there, the healing arts that you're a doctor. Yeah, and I do think the heart too, now that I think about it, is what names my private practice, which I'm developing still, which is rhythm source wellness.


    And I think rhythm sources that is relating to the heart. Not just the heart, also the electrical signals and the, cerebral spinal fluid. All these rhythms that are hormones pulsing the moon and the sun, all of the rhythms that that we coexist with. But really the heart being the most obvious one that we can all feel that we test to make sure we're still alive, we feel for our heart.


    And so that's really what makes us living. And that's really what makes us well. And so I find it so fascinating how we can co-regulate. We can, first of all, we can regulate our own heart really [00:45:00] easily with practice. Not instantly, but with breath, with meditation, with other, with exercise. We can control the rhythm of our heart, but we can also regulate with other people and we can synchronize our rhythms together.


    It gives us this connection to life and meaning to it all. So I find that the heart has been what drives me. I think first in my head, it's what, it's the reason I went through the grueling work of medical school because I want to be my best self. I want others to be their best selves.


    I want to care for people and I want them to care for themselves, and I want them to care about other people. And and I wanna connect. [00:46:00] So yeah, the heart, it's such a beautiful thing. It's also sometimes been a problem for me when I spill out a little too much of my heart and I haven't have had to learn the skills and the balance to keep it safe.


    And I do love the rose being a symbol of the heart. And in that heart cha too, because the rose is a perfect example of the heart. It's this beautiful effervescence, calming, delicate soft. Thing that's so precious, but it's protected by these thorns. Yeah. And the Hawthorne 


    Quincee: plant 


    Marina: too. Yeah, it's true.


    And the sweet berries as well. It's this, that you have to have thorns around your sweet little heart to be safe. And so it's a balance of loving [00:47:00] and forgiving and creating boundaries and loving within your capacity and loving in a way that's actually healing and not damaging to yourself or others.


    Quincee: I think about the falling pedals of the rows, like transforming into those two eagles, like in their talon lock. Yeah. That's the image I just got. And how the heart in, its like, in its abundance and it's like oozing and dripping and melting, like also feeds the other, the lower three chakras too, and like nourishes them and washes them clean.


    Yeah. As well as in a truly boundless way, extending out and touching everything else around it. And, and yes, I wanna dive deeper into like your [00:48:00] experience with medicine and just what was the calling there and yeah. Where does your desire to like heal people and tend to people come from?


    Marina: I have such a hard time answering this. I feel like I have so many answers, but maybe some of it's hard to answer because I feel like it's just part of my spirit. Like I was born with it and that I just needed to do it. But, as a kid I wanted to be a vet. I loved animals and I wanted to be a doctor.


    I loved people and I loved science, and I loved plants. And so it, it definitely made sense. But I shadowed a vet clinic and it turned out that I didn't have the heart for it because it was, it would've been traumatizing, just all the sick animals and the fact that the animals don't really want your help, even though they don't necessarily [00:49:00] know that they need a vet, but most animals don't like the vet.


    I just felt like that wasn't the path for me and. I didn't have a huge connection to the medical system, made me feel


    disconnected from the idea that medicine heals people. Yeah. I felt like it was so sterile that there was no heart there. And that of course there's certain caretakers that, that really do provide that care in medical situations where, the nurse or the doctor has been helpful and healing to me, I'm so grateful.


    But yeah, I didn't know about that medicine could be truly healing until I discovered naturopathic medicine. It reignited the flame that I could stay true to my values and help people, and I could use the tools of nature to do so it gave me a lot of hope.


    [00:50:00] I, I couldn't do medicine if I couldn't be true to myself and my values and in the current climate. And it felt that it was a lot of very abrasive, sometimes drug pushing. Not that I'm antip pharmaceuticals in the situations they're necessary for, but it just felt like it wasn't the role that I was meant for.


    But when I discovered natural medicine and this community aspect and this spiritual aspect of healing, I started to come back to medicine and realized that it was something I could do and that I believed in because I think we're, I don't really have this cultural experience of healing. It was something that, that a lot of Americans are disconnected from.


    But this [00:51:00] experience of maybe a. Community healer or an herbalist, or your parents even cooking herbal soups or teas, that it could be built into our lifestyle and the way the plants we grow and the nature healing is inherent in life. And we're always making choices to live in accordance to oneness with nature and healing.


    To me, that's what true healing is this oneness with nature. So when I figured out that there was real science behind that, there were real jobs that did that, it really just blew my mind. And I realized, okay, we're gonna do it. We're gonna heal the earth and we're gonna heal ourselves. And it's possible.


    And I've been chasing that rabbit Yeah. Ever since.


    Quincee: It is such a good rabbit to chase.


    Marina: And there's different kinds of naturopathic doctors. And in my cohort I saw there was really analytical thinkers. There [00:52:00] were people that were, more on the allopathic spectrum.


    And and I think that they're doing great things and they're doing great things for medicine and natural medicine, but I always felt like my role was more the old school heart-centered reconnect to nature person. And I don't know if I needed a doctorate to do that. I got it already. Yeah. So now it's giving me some legitimacy and some vocabulary and some academic avenues, but I think that was always inherent in me and what I wanted to do and what I believed in.


    And so with this retreat center, we wanna bring as many people in to connect to nature in whatever capacity. If they wanna come teach, if they want to have body work, if they want, herbal medicine, if they want forest [00:53:00] bathing, sound bathing just whatever allows people to reconnect to themselves, I think could potentially heal the world.


    I don't know. 


    Quincee: Wow. Yeah, I think there was something that I was listening to today. I don't know if you're familiar with David Lynch? Yeah, of course. Oh yeah. So I just finished his book today Catching the Big Fish, and at the end he's talking about how when a group of people get together and meditate and he was referring to he was referring to some study where there were like 8,000 people together meditating that it changes the entire.


    The entire city that they're in, like they've scientifically researched that. Then they get a group of people together meditating, and they're in vibrational alignment and they're in a state of transcendence or bliss. There's less [00:54:00] crime in the city. Like bringing a few people out into nature and truly, deeply connecting them back in, plugging them back in and then sending them out into their lives has an impact that is exponential and beyond our capacity to actually recognize, not even just not even just relationally or in the decisions they make that follow, but like physiologically, the bacterium in their system change to reflect the environment that they've just immersed themselves into and they're healthier and they're more connected to the soil microbiome.


    And I'm sure you're familiar, the work of Zach Bush, like he's one of my favorites and he talks a lot about the gut and soil microbiome and the analog there and the parallelism between the two and how healing our soils and healing ourselves is one in the same. Ah, 


    Marina: yeah. So you can't see me, but I've got a huge [00:55:00] smile on my face.


    I love this sort of stuff and I feel that, it's getting this degree has allowed me to. Give myself a platform to try to bring out more evidence of what I already know. And I think what we all inherently know that magic is real, we know we can feel this. But I love that there are studies continuing to come about and that I get to be a part of a growing field of medicine that's being accepted more with more legitimacy that we deeply need as a society that, that we've had a fractured relationship to nature and to community, to a point that's devastating and the earth has devastated as well.


    And so this kind of connects too to what I was struggling to say earlier, but when I went to school, I went as a pre-med student and quickly fell out of love with [00:56:00] that calling. And I shifted to environmental medicine at the time because I knew I still loved nature and I still 


    Quincee: Yeah, 


    Marina: want, I felt that we were in a climate crisis and that, the earth needs to be protected.


    So maybe I could prove through environmental science that we need to protect the earth. I had another pivotal shift where I realized that the science was actually there. That the earth was suffering and that our legislators just don't care or that people aren't connected enough to the earth to really care that it's suffering.


    Quincee: Yeah. 


    Marina: And so I came to this idea of nature therapy, ecotherapy, wilderness therapy. There's so many forms. 


    Quincee: Yeah. 


    Marina: But that Did you do wilderness therapy? Sorry to interrupt you. No it's okay. Not per, not exactly. I've done some things. Yeah. And nothing 


    Quincee: quite like that. But 


    Marina: I 


    Quincee: just had to ask, the guidance side of [00:57:00] me was like, are you also a wilderness therapy guide?


    Marina: Not yet. Not yet, but maybe next time we talk. But I just realized if we had more natural spaces and more connection to nature, we would prioritize When we, if we realize that this is what's feeding us, that this is what calms us, this is what nourishes us, we would inherently be the stewards that we're meant to be on the earth.


    So then I discovered natural medicine and I realized that I can be a doctor and heal people and heal nature. And the key to what I need to do is to connect people to nature. And if people connect to nature, they will heal and nature will heal. And we are inseparable. Yeah. 


    Quincee: And can I say something?


    Crazy. Yes, please do. I think one of the instrumental pieces of how we heal [00:58:00] our connection to ourselves and our connection to nature is by pointing to nature's beauty or its artfulness. And reminding people that like that is, that, is that which they really are. And that is what is so real and so beautiful.


    And I think that healing the, yeah. Healing the connection between between us as humans and the planet. This really fractured relationship is through like beauty and artfulness, and I love that. Yeah. Art plays a big role. 


    Marina: Art plays 


    Quincee: a big 


    Marina: role. I love that so much because I often feel in my gut that art is important and necessary, but I don't feel that society gives it that credit and that impact, even though through history I feel what people went through, through the art that was made at the [00:59:00] time.


    Just the, this, the pure beauty and creativity and expression is worthy just for what it is. And as is nature, we don't need to profit off of it. We don't need to prove that it's worthy. It's just inherent. It is. And therefore it's necessary. Yeah. And that nature gives us everything we need.


    But I do feel that connection back to the snake yeah, because I, one of the interpretations someone told me of the snake was that the snake is a symbol of healing. Ah, yes. The caduceus or I don't know if I'm saying that correctly. 


    Quincee: Are you referring to the I don't know the name of it.


    The little like snake wrapping around the staff? Yes. That is usually Yeah. Okay. The symbol of medicine 


    Marina: different. Yes, exactly. Wow. 


    Quincee: Incredible. And so the snake is everywhere. 


    Marina: That's amazing. And I also think the interesting thing about that and this like [01:00:00] epiphany I had, that healing is about connecting us back to nature.


    And that's truly healing better than any pharmaceutical, better than any nutritional supplement we could take is connecting to nature would be the golden ticket to healing. Is that the snake is the earth. Really, it's the connection. It's the connection between living creatures and the soil, and it's the closest to the soil and it rises out of that.


    But kind of this continued symbolism or story that like, we have to get back to the earth and we have to appreciate all of its creatures. And once we're back to the soil, we will, everything will fall back into place. 


    Quincee: Bellies on the earth. Yeah. They're so smart. Oh, it's beautiful. Wow.


    It's funny that you name like feeling really drawn [01:01:00] towards healing and towards medicine, but never quite locking in with the Western medical, would you call it allopathic medical? Yeah. Yeah. Route. Just today, I, this past fall I applied for school at the Yale School of Nursing to do, a psychiatric nurse practitioner pathway.


    Marina: Wow, 


    Quincee: that's so exciting. And yeah I called them today and said, no. Oh, really? Just today. I called them today and said, no. And the conversation was actually really beautiful. I felt like I had a really deliberate choice over the last few weeks to just let the offer letter lapse and just like never hear, never say anything to them or to like, call and give my formal, like my formal [01:02:00] answer, my formal voice and my formal choice of, Hey, like I am so happy to have put myself out there and tried and gotten this offer from you and the scholarship.


    But the institution that I saw did not reflect the values that it was touting when I entered the space, it didn't feel like people were healthy, happy, healing, vital, joyful. It felt like the people who were meant to be, not only healers, but examples of health, the nurses, the professors were actually really struggling and suffering and the environment that they were in.


    And as much as I am really curious about doing healing worker work on that level as a practitioner, I know that it's not through [01:03:00] the normative western medical framework. And so to call today and say no really felt like a new claiming. And sometimes no is just as powerful as a yes or a claiming of another thing that is for you to saying no to something that is not for you.


    And here we are now to completely in the throat chakra, but I know, but boundaries and yes and no. 


    Marina: It goes back to that. It's solar plexus. Totally. That power, where you're gonna sow your seeds. I do think that, my impression of knowing you is that you are a healer and that you are doing so many avenues of healing that we need.


    And I find it so interesting. I've been fascinated with somatics. I think, just with natural medicine and with dance. Yeah. I have been a really growing fascination and I think it's so interesting that you were in touch with your body when you were in the space, that you were connecting to [01:04:00] the way that it felt for you and that allowed you to have some clarity and that you followed that too, and that you're walking the talk and through doing that you are exemplifying healing and teaching others how to thank you to heal themselves.


    Because I think that's the part of the problem with the conventional wave sometimes, is that we all feel that we have to enter that realm to be legitimate or to be helpful or to be the best when there's so many alternative routes that are the best for us. 


    Quincee: It's so fascinating because I walked into the Yale School of Nursing the day after I really deeply transformative experience at a sound meditation ceremony. I trained with this incredible group of people in sound meditation [01:05:00] facilitation in Western Massachusetts in late October.


    And we had a sound ceremony at the very end of our training where our teacher, a really incredible facilitator just sound sorcerer, gave us this meditation. It sent me into the deepest state of meditation I've ever been in. It almost feels like blasphemous to even talk about it with my words.


    I don't even really wanna touch it. It does, it feels too sacred. But I think what it, what happened is the next morning when I was like heading onto the Yale School of Nursing Campus, my body was, if we're talking about the body as a, vibrational experience. It was really well tuned towards bliss and towards centeredness and joy and healing and love.


    I felt like in that moment I was really in my center and really [01:06:00] in my knowing.


    Going into that campus and I, what I felt was such a clear no. But it's interesting 'cause what followed after that were , three or four months of me being like maybe I just need to give it another try.


    Like maybe I need to do this or that and the other. I was really back and forth. I was really trying to fit myself into the box because when I told people that I got into the Yale School of Nursing people were like, wow, that's incredible. You have to go. You can't say no to that. You can't say no to the scholarship.


    And I definitely got in my head about it. So yeah, so to say no felt like a really powerful claiming of actually what is for me feels like a full yes through every cell of my body. And I know what yes feels like because I experienced it the night before I got there. And I know what Yes. Is supposed to feel like.


    Marina: I'm so proud of you. And I feel like very, so [01:07:00] confident that you're on the right path. Yeah. And that you're going to make such an impact on that path. 


    Quincee: Thank you so much. That's a really sweet gift.


    Thank you.


    Marina: I feel like the thrill is something I'm struggling with right now. It's very, right now, even just singing and screaming. Yeah. It's very active in my life and I'm going into this voice.


    But I. Very often been dependent on other people's voices to give me permission to create or to validate my art. And I hate to admit I've been so impacted by people's words in the past. But I suppose it's just a part of being a human and being a community member is that you wanna be recognized.


    But I've needed a lot of validation in the past. So [01:08:00] sometimes I almost resent it and I almost want to shut out other people's opinions so that I can hear my own voice. I don't know, it's just a struggle I'm feeling right now, this back and forth, but also that I, especially with doing something new, and it's feeling like I need to be brave when people do give me words of affirmation I really need it.


    And I really like light up and I really feel more confident. So it's just a balance I'm navigating. There's a lot of me turning around being like, is this okay? Yeah. Is this okay? Yeah.


    Yes. Is this a yes from everyone? Yeah. So navigating how, 


    Quincee: yeah. 


    Marina: How I'm allowing things to leave my body. 


    Quincee: I think affirmation and [01:09:00] validation, whether they're internal or coming from the people around us as we walk our creative path are I dare say, instrumental to our success. Like having a healthy dialogue of permission, not only permission, but like emphatic like encouragement to bring forth what you're bringing forth is so huge.


    And when I think about that, I think about the way, like in my path, I don't think that I would be doing what I was doing right now if I hadn't had people in my life who were cheering me on and saying yes and being like, you have this, and even in moments where my internal dialogue or my dialogue with myself has been.


    Heavy or [01:10:00] self-sabotaging or forgetful of my own gifts. Having people and who are willing to reflect my capacity, or my creative life force back to me and remind me has been so beautiful. Like the relationships, ugh. Yeah. They're so precious. 


    Marina: I do think the throat chakra, not to oversimplify it like the mechanics, but


    it really is one of the ways that we connect to each other the easiest, just speaking. It's a conversation. And though we can sing to ourselves just for the sake of entertaining ourselves and for the joy of it, a lot of the way that we use our voice is to get an idea across to others and to be heard.


    Quincee: And to communicate. And so it is a dynamic and it's a give and receive. And I [01:11:00] don't want to overstep and be shouting over the world. I think that's part of this tension for me 


    is 


    Marina: wondering what's appropriate or what's, when is how to communicate effectively and kindly and. In the time that it's needed and not to overstep or say too much.


    And it's not that I necessarily from a place of shame, but just wanting to really authentically connect. So using my voice in,


    in a safe way, in a controlled way. 


    Quincee: Yeah, and I think like navigating that balance between listening and responding and receiving and then reacting being in dialogue with your experience is [01:12:00] ultimately, I think one of the, one of the wellsprings of the creative act and impulse, like it is a dialogue.


    And in order to, I think in order to create something and say something, we have to listen to something really well first, whether that's our inner experience or whether that's a current of culture or whether that's another being, whether that's a plant, an animal, a human. To listen really well, and then to create something in reciprocity to that thing is what we're doing.


    Marina: It is, and I maybe it something this conversation's uncovering a little is that it's I feel sad for my dependence on other people sometimes. And I don't think that's right necessarily. But your voice is [01:13:00] also like a cry for help. And when you're born, it's the first thing that you know how to do is to wail for your mom to love you and to feed you and to keep you warm.


    And that's really the core of being alive and being human, and being community members that we're gonna have to cry sometimes. We're gonna have to ask people to look at us and to witness and to, Hey, listen to me. And that's okay. To give yourself permission to ask for the eyes and the ears and the heart and the soul of another, to witness what we're doing.


    Quincee: Wow. 


    Marina: And I've created so much in secret and in hiding. Afraid to go the next step of allowing people to see it. And I've had to cultivate this voice that I'm still struggling to develop, to ask people to look at me and to. Accept [01:14:00] and to sit with me in it. 


    Quincee: Yeah. To be witnessed and heard.


    Yeah. It's interesting because it's like you said, something so innate. Like we come in knowing how to use our cry and our voice to ask for help, to ask for love, attention, and care. And then I think, of course, in the process of growing up and individuating and becoming a member of polite society and yeah, at some point we lose that.


    We don't ask anymore to be presence and witness when we most need it actually. And so I think there's a great unlearning that happens as soon as our awareness falls upon that, where we're like, oh, I actually do have to be seen in this now again. And I think that's another reason why, you know, just being a, being an adolescent and maybe even [01:15:00] into the early twenties and however long it takes us to figure out how to be witnessed can be so challenging.


    'cause we feel like in this island of separation, it's so interesting 'cause just yesterday, just yesterday for the very, very first time on this adventure I had with my friend, we were walking back to the car and I said, this year in my relationships, I want more creative intimacy. I want to be able to share my voice with people in a creative capacity more and more.


    And within 10 minutes we were inside the car warming up after a big, snowy adventure. And he's okay, are you ready to read some of your poetry to me? And that was the very first time yesterday that I had read any of my poetry aloud to another being. [01:16:00] And back in May, I published like a really small poetry zine.


    I printed like only 30 or 40 of these little zines. And they were really precious and really tender to me. And I never shared the voice. I never read them aloud to anyone. And yesterday the feeling of reading this aloud to someone and having it be witnessed and fall into the ears of another person was so meaningful.


    I'm sure there's a word beyond meaningful that I can't touch, but transformative. Yeah. I love, and I love that it was an exchange that you voiced this need, this desire, and that they gave you permission and validation and asked for it, for you to recite it. This conversation and the way that people can be integral in our [01:17:00] transformation and our journey and our self-development, that they were tuned in.


    Marina: And not that validation isn't wrong, but sometimes it can be what gives us the permission to grow to that next level. 


    Quincee: I am also becoming, trying to become more comfortable with just silence. Yeah. 


    Marina: I'm feeling pretty relaxed right now actually 


    Quincee: yeah. And I think that's a part of the evolution of the throat too, is knowing and honoring the silence that I is always behind that which we say there's something there.


    Like a really a healthy and and new reverence for the space where our expression appears. 


    Marina: That's so 


    Quincee: true. 


    Marina: The timing and the shape that it takes, I often see music in shapes. Wow. And I think [01:18:00] that's part of like my relationship to dance too, coming into dance. And that's my way to come into music has always been about creating these shapes and these waves.


    And I think about like art, like the black and the white and the negative space dancing with the space around it. And in dance often people aren't really looking at your body necessarily. They're looking at the shape that you create around your body and this field. And I do think that with our words as well, it's that we're painting.


    The silence. And the silence is always there existing between our words, but. So to in this relationship, so 


    Quincee: to in visual art? Yeah. Yeah. Like the negative space is as important and is as potent and as alive as the painting itself or the subject. [01:19:00] And I think that is something that I am so enlivened by in this podcast space and why I wanna have these conversations in the dark and why I want to underscore and celebrate the mystery of the void so deeply and keep coming back to that over and over again.


    Because the void is the fertile soil from which everything blooms. And having a healthy relationship with, and a reverence for, and an acceptance of void as our, like true nature, really Beyond all else, all other things. Like we are, our true condition is like this vast, empty, luminous space.


    And I think that's why I'm getting so into, like Vajrayana Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism, because it speaks [01:20:00] to emptiness as like the truest condition. And I think for years that maybe like really depressed me because I don't think I understood. I came to Buddhism to Zen first when I was, let's see, like 18 years old or so but when I came out of college I reached this total impasse with it for about a year because the idea of emptiness was feeling really apathetic to me and really like sad. I was experiencing a really deep like spiritual depression around the concept of emptiness.


    And I didn't really understand the meaning bet behind the heart sutra. And the heart sutra speaks about how emptiness is form and form is emptiness. And I know that this might get really heady suddenly, but. It [01:21:00] wasn't until I like, could begin to wrap, I can't even say wrap my mind around that, begin to allow that to wrap around my mind and begin to allow that idea to en unfold and encircle me that I started to feel some peace and some relief in my practice.


    And to begin to hold the possibility that maybe everything in life and in creation that was so beautiful and so rich and so alive


    was because of its relationship to emptiness and that all of it included emptiness. And that form was within emptiness. And that emptiness was within form. Yeah. There was like a new piece there of and then that piece transformed into a real devotion too, and then reverence. And then and now here we are, we're sitting in the dark and this, my [01:22:00] favorite place to be now is just, yeah, just getting a little bit more comfortable with the mystery and sitting here in the dark and letting things come through in a way that's, informed by that and touched by that and held by that darkness, bringing our word and form into this emptiness and letting it be here.


    Marina: I love this. One, I really do feel like our voices are being given the space to really dance and move and this darkness that I'm really feeling and seeing and sensing the full weight of the words that we're saying and not distracted by the visual, which is helpful for me to concentrate right now in the empty space.


    But it feels more intimate in a way than if we could see each other. But I think it's, there's such beauty in this luminous spaces, as you're saying, like our vocal cords, [01:23:00] our windpipes and our uterus. This idea that these space, empty spaces, these hollow spaces aren't devoid necessarily, that they are the maximum potential of life, and that this is where creation is born.


    In this emptiness, this is where the spark happens. This is where we build the winds to. To push out and to move words and to move our lips, to be a mouthpiece for our visions. But emptiness allows creation. 


    Quincee: Yeah. In order to know creation, we have to know emptiness. And I think in order to know emptiness, we have to know creation.


    And that's the essence of that sutra to me. Yeah. Exactly what you're speaking. So well spoken.


    Marina: It's also what allows fluidity, if our, if everything was solid, we would have nowhere to move. And it allows us this push and [01:24:00] pull between form and formlessness. That's what movement is. Yeah. And when I move too, I, I feel the air moves around me. Yeah. You need space 


    Quincee: to dance in, 


    Marina: but it's also not empty.


    But it is, I don't understand it, but I know there's a relationship there. 


    Quincee: Oh. To try to understand the the mystery. 


    Marina: That's what we're here for. 


    Quincee: Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. It makes me think like I. We're just we're just so little and like of course we're radiant and luminous and powerful and we're reflections of the universe in such a true and mind blowing capacity.


    And we are so complex and fabulously sophisticated on a cellular level and we're also just so new to this experience. [01:25:00] And I don't know. I'm just, I feel, I think that having a relationship to the, to emptiness or two darkness really invites in that humility of there is so much I can never know and that's so okay with me.


    Can I just be okay with not knowing? Yeah. That's so beautiful. I do think it's one of those, I we're so small as a statement that could be equally depressing as it is empowering. 'cause on one hand, we don't have a lot of grand impact on whether it be politics or the world at large.


    Marina: But that's freeing and beautiful. I don't know that we would want that large amount of power over everything around us that I like to think. In geologic time, I'm just a baby. Yeah. I'm just a speck here, and that's a beautiful thing. To not take everything so seriously all the time, too.


    [01:26:00] Yeah. 


    Quincee: I'm gonna drift us up into into, yeah. The vision into the third eye, into the, and


    There's so much breadth to explore here, and I feel like we're going to inevitably launch into something that I can't even see yet. You've spoken to the way you wanna illuminate, deeper unexpressed parts of self, and you want to illuminate the connection between self and earth and self in nature, and to illuminate the healing capacity of that connection.


    I'm wondering if there's anything else you hope to illuminate through your creative journey, and if you can even stretch your imaginal tendrils out into the future, and think about the things that you have not yet created that you look forward to creating and carving out of the [01:27:00] void.


    Marina: I think


    there's a lot of knowing or just seems like things come out of nowhere when I create sometimes or that there's something moving through my body and I'm not really in control. But I think that there's a inherent connection to nature, as we mentioned before, and to each other. And sometimes, I don't know if these visions are coming from me or if they're coming from a higher power spirit.


    Like I'm just tapping into it. And I think what's really the conclusion I'm coming to is that it's the [01:28:00] same. It's the same thing. And that, that we're all these light bodies from the same source of light, just fragmented in our own personal being. But I'm just tapping into this light that exists in all of us that is just this universal truth that we can pull in and out, pull threads out from when we're relaxed and when we're given the opportunity.


    And so


    I don't always know my vision until later. It just feels natural. Yeah. But I think that's inherent to just. Tapping into this light that we all carry. Yeah. And I do think light is so much, again this like spark of creation, this light is very much what I see [01:29:00] is life. And not just life here, but when we leave the world where people say that you see the light and you enter the light, it's like you go back to your home.


    Quincee: Yeah. 


    Marina: Whether it be the stars in the sky or 


    Quincee: Yeah. 


    Marina: The depths of the sea, wherever we belong. But we're all connected to this light and we have to tune ourselves to see it and to read it. But it just is, and I don't change it, I don't impact it. I just let it flow through me. Yeah.


    And use my body as a tool. 


    Quincee: I can't tell you how much I appreciate you flipping the question in on itself. And really highlighting the fact that we don't necessarily choose the vision. And the vision chooses us and selects us when we're ready. [01:30:00] And I think that's, yeah, that's really cool to be an instrument to that.


    To that inevitable energy of source or creation that will come and select the most ready and most willing instrument of its, yeah, its completion or its materialization or actualization. Yeah. 


    Marina: I also think it's the one that make this, that makes me feel the craziest. It's sometimes when you just know something and you have no logical explanation, or you just have this urge and you just know it's the right thing to do, or, it's the future you're supposed to hold, or you can see the possibilities, the power, the magic in something that someone else can't see yet.


    Quincee: What you just shared feels really tender to me. And I'm almost gonna cry about it [01:31:00] because I think in just the past a few months with starting this project with vision seeded, I've felt like afraid that people aren't gonna understand it. I have felt so, so passionate and such a deep sense of knowing that this is right and that this is what I need to be doing, and that this is the mission or vision or intention that I came here to fulfill.


    And it feels so choiceless and also so resonant in my body and my entire system. I really feel like that this selected me to come to fulfill it. And I also feel like simultaneously I worry about losing connections to people in my life who might not understand what I'm creating.


    And that's a [01:32:00] really, that's a vulnerability point for me right now is like trusting that the right people will come along with me on this journey as I create the most authentic expression that I possibly can.


    I had been getting this intuitive, like poll really strongly to go to Santa Fe, New Mexico for years. And there was something about it and I had no idea what it was. Of course some of my very favorite painters in the whole wide world have painted in New Mexico specifically. But I finally found myself there in November for the first time, and it hit me like a lightning bolt. Like this project came into me in full detail in an [01:33:00] instant, and.


    I just popped up out of bed and I wrote for two or three hours and just fleshed this thing out., It's wild. But I know that I have to serve whatever visited me that night and I have to serve that to its completion. And I have no idea how long that will take.


    Marina: I can feel a parallel with my own journey, but in what you mentioned earlier too, that when you are aligned and ready to receive this vision, everything will start happening so fast and it will take a lot longer than you think it will.


    And there will be twists and turns on the journey, but everything is gonna fall into place when you know that it's right and you see it clearly, and then all of your other forces align with it. Your heart and your solar plexus, [01:34:00] I feel like it can be very scary to know. And to have to arrange the rest of your life and your relationships around that, knowing now it is a bit, it overtakes you Yeah.


    And your life. But it's also such a gift.


    Quincee: I think I just wanna highlight like the luck in it too. And I think there are things that I did do to prepare my vessel energetically and emotionally and spiritually to receive some sort of some sort of download. But there's a remarkable gift that I I couldn't have possibly conjured myself. 


    Marina: It is lucky. It's a little bit of skill and a little bit of luck and a little bit of just divine timing, but. When it hits us it's very powerful. And I think a lot of this vision for me comes in signs I find the universe gives me, like flirts with me is how I like to imagine [01:35:00] it.


    That I'll see symbols or patterns or signs that I'm on the right path. And it always makes me smile. And I just know that as crazy as I sound that it's all part of the plan and that I'm actually following the breadcrumbs this time. Like the universe has been leaving me these breadcrumbs and I've just been looking to, in the weeds, not looking down at my feet where they're being placed.


    And then one, like when you're mushroom hunting and one and then all of a sudden you realize they're everywhere, all over, around your feet and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm in the belly of it. But when you finally realize your vision, you realize the signs that were being told to you all along and you start to draw these large connections.


    Yeah. And you start to see the network that's formed around you and realize that it was weaving its path for you. 


    Quincee: Yes. The way you put that was so perfect. I feel like that's language I've been looking for where now that I have [01:36:00] this vision, or now that I have my thing in my poems and I'm looking at it, I'm.


    Feeling the way that the things in my past that maybe felt like obstacles or missteps or inconveniences were actually serving this. 


    Marina: Yeah. 


    Quincee: And that's just so unbelievably sweet. It is just a wink from something beyond me that's see, I told you so I had your back. And oh, that's so sweet.


    Marina: If you don't truly have that vision, then it's not the path that you are going to harvest necessarily. 


    Quincee: Yeah. Back to the harvest analogies so beautiful. I love that imagery, especially of course, 'cause of the seed in the vision seed. I really do think there's something. Really poignant about the life of people as seeds.


    And there's a really [01:37:00] beautiful book called the Unlikely Peace at Cuchumaquic. It's a mouthful, but it's by Martin Pretchel. And he's a really fabulous writer. And he is someone who went to go live among an Amazon tribe


    and he learned about the life of people as seeds and seeds as people. And the way that the seed was so integral to the life of people insofar as they believed themselves to be seeds of one another. And it just was such a beautiful interrelationality, such a beautiful tale of


    hopefulness and lineage and ancestry and, ugh, I can't even begin to touch it.


    Marina: I can't 


    Quincee: wait to hear about it. It's a super long book. It's taken me like three years to get halfway through. That's, and I savor it.


    Marina: It's, [01:38:00] part of that playfulness too of life and the universe at work that these, even the trials and tribulations we've gone through are leading us to our path. That we can laugh and trust the dance a little bit more and that our toes gonna get stubbed sometimes, but we're going to get there.


    The visualization I have now since we're getting into that is like the seed knows where the sun is. It's just born knowing and growing towards it for the rest of its life. And we will always follow the light and the light leads us. 


    I so deeply appreciate you tuning into the podcast. 


    It is my absolute joy and honor to get to bring you these beautiful conversations


    If you're feeling inspired to connect more or to deepen in your creative [01:39:00] practice, my seven day creative cleanse, which is delivered every day for seven days to your inbox or creative Kundalini on Monday nights.


    Are free always and are the perfect way to support a creative practice that's just beginning or one that maybe needs a little bit of love. If you wanna support this podcast and gain access to more content, you can find me on Patreon.


    Also, keep an eye out. My next creative cohort is launching soon and I would love to journey with you. All of these links will be in the show notes and I will see you there.


    Until next time, keep dancing in the dark and cultivating the seeds of your creative vision. Bye-bye.



Quincee Lark
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